gobear:
you really surprised me there. Thank you for reminding me why I had respect for you in the first place, before all the “gay wars” hostility came about. Thank you for not misunderstanding me as competely as I had thought.
You seem to have misunderstood me. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough.
I don’t claim that gaybashing doesn’t happen. I’m highlighting a specific type of behavior and saying that if you act like that and you get beaten up, it’s more likely for the way you treat people than for being gay.
I remember meeting you in NYC last January, and I didn’t want to hit you for any reason at all. You seem like a nice guy, and you just didn’t seem to bring out violence in people. I don’t recall seeing you act like a jerk on the board either. So if somebody started attacking you, I would assume it was because of some personal prejudice.
When I see that somebody commonly is abusive and hateful to people, and then say they were beaten up for being gay, I have to question whether that’s the real reason.
To be quite honest with you, I don’t see gobear as being an asshole at all. I think he just doesn’t understand Joe_cool. You and MrVisible on the other hand, I won’t say too much on. I understand that gobear is trying to stand up to someone who he thinks is trying to bash him down, (even though Joe made no comments about his SO ) but I have a news flash for you: Let’s just say we were all at a dopefest in NY and some gay haters (even though you seem to think that’s us) started causing problems. Mark my words that Joe_cool, the alleged gaybasher, would be THE FIRST TO BEAT THEIR ASSES INTO THE GROUND FOR YOU! Maybe if you chose your friends wisely you wouldn’t have to worry about watching your own back.
Keep in mind that because someone wants you to know the bible, it does not mean they hate you. They want you to know it because they care. I care gobear, enough to not want you to be misled. If you choose not to follow, it’s your business, but I’d still have a beer with you at the dopefest, even though you make vile comments about me.
Well if you:[ul][li]Stated that if it were up to you, somebody should “lay utter waste to and be done with it once and for all.” []Wrote that “IMO the Chinese - collectively as a people - gave up any rights and credibility they might have had when they took over Tibet.” []Opined that “In my experience, I have found Chinese to be a very hateful people.” Claimed that the Chinese people in Paterson, NJ openly celebrated the 9/11 attacks and refused to retract even though it was shown to be a filthy, slanderous lie.[/ul]Then yeah, I would conclude that you were a bigoted sack of shit like Our Pal Joey.[/li]
I will concede, however, that it is entirely possible Joe_Cool saw a Palestinian laughing at a joke or celebrating a loved one’s survival on 9/11 and drew the conclusion that the Arab community of Paterson was in ecstasy over the attacks. So maybe he’s not being intentionally decptive in that last one. Maybe he’s just a moronic, bigoted jerk.
Wel, D_Nice, that’s actually quite profound and well-written. I do not agree with it, however, and would discuss it further with you if you re-posted it as an argument in the Great Debates Forum. I think this thread is a lost cause as an area to discuss this side-topic in.
minty green, you have always struck me as an arrogant jackass, and all you do is reinforce my opinion again and again.
It sure must be easy to sit there on your ass in Dallas reading google and tell me what I didn’t see in New Jersey where I live. Why don’t you look it up and tell me what I had for lunch yesterday, too? Maybe it too can be shown to be a filthy lie. (didn’t you have to take English to get into Law school? didn’t they teach you that the passive voice sounds stupid and pretentious? Oh wait, it fits your personality perfectly. Keep using it)
Once again, with feeling!
Israel is under persistent attack from a group that has no national identity and no military resources to attack properly, and does not have the courage to fight openly, but hides behind the civilian population. This group is financed, equipped, and encouraged by the surrounding nations, who have all failed in their attempts to destroy Israel militarily, so now they fill the Palestinian refugees’ heads with propaganda so that they’ll go do their dirty work for them.
So Israel is not fighting only the suicidal Palestinians, they are also fighting the groups that are sending the Palestinians into shopping malls and restaurants to die. Idealogically, this is no different from the previous wars they fought against their neighbors, except that the neighbors know now that they get spanked every time they fight openly.
So it’s obvious that the only solution is for Israel to fight back and hard against the sources - which are the surrounding nations. It’s also obvious that no matter what the “governments” say, the civilians and various terrorist groups will not stop fighting.
So it’s further obvious that Israel has a choice to make:
Sit idly and resign themselves to destruction,
Or retaliate with a heavy response against those that are carrying out the attacks.
This is no different from the situation that American soldiers faced in Viet Nam: The enemy hid among civilians, and in many instances WERE the “civilians”. Those men were in fear for their lives, and the very people they were trying to protect were the ones shooting at them. The occasions when they took war to the civilians are forgivable and understandable, if not justified.
In Israel, the civilians are the ones walking into town with bombs. The ones throwing firebombs and shooting into crowds. The ones throwing rocks and blowing up cars. Israel is not fighting an army, they are fighting a citizen militia, and it is vital that they pacify it. And it has already been demonstrated that force is the only language they understand.
So perhaps I was a bit overzealous when I said “Lay utter waste”, but continued negotiation is a waste of energy and the only viable response for them is calculated, overwhelming military action.
What I wanted to say about the Palestinians giving up their rights was “collectively as a Nation” but since they aren’t a nation, I had to use the next best thing. The Palestinian nation doesn’t exist, so I spoke about the “Palestinian people”.
And piss off if you think you’re qualified to judge my experiences. My experiences in the Palestinian section of town is that they have behaved hatefully. If you don’t like it, too f-ing bad. I have neither need nor desire to justify myself to you any further than I already have.
Joe, I must apologize, not for what I said, but for the phrasing that resulted in you taking it as an insult.
As the context ought to have shown, and I regret that it didn’t, I was defending you from the accusations of gobear and others that you were malicious towards gay people. And it was not my intent to superciliously consider your opinions on the Bible or your faith as “ignorant.”
Rather, I meant that you were probably “ignorant” – in the sense of “unaware” – of the emotional, psychological, spirit-draining impact of the gay=sinful Bible quotes and the attitudes of many Christians deriving from them, and in particular of the hatemongers who use those quotes and the reactions of gay people to them as means whereby to demonize and cast as “people beyond the pale” every person who admits to having a gay orientation. I simply, from what I’ve seen of you, did not see you as wishing to do that, and so categorized your stance in support of the Bibliocentric view as one taken, not in malice towards gay people, but in ignorance of how such a stance affects them.
Two blunt questions regarding this:
What, in your opinion, is our proper reaction as Christians towards him and others who have felt this mistreatment?
What, again in your opinion, should be our proper stance towards our fellow mern who identify as Christians and who do “feel the need to persecute” gay people? (I’m confident that Esprix and gobear, among others, will happily supply plenteous evidence of that persecution.)
Finally, let me say that I personally bear you no rancor, and hope that you and Jersey have a fulfilling and happy life and together “let your light so shine before men that they see your good works and so glorify your Father who is in Heaven.” I think you’re both fine people, and I’ve enjoyed immensely our repartee on the reading interests we share over in Cafe Society. I simply feel that your expressed stance to date in behalf of the Savior and Lord that we share is having exactly opposite effects to those we’re called to try to achieve, and as your brother in Christ who cares about you and about those whom your witness is turning off to Christ, feel called to object publicly – as well as privately, as you know. (Per your request, I’ll say no more than that we have indeed had an e-mail exchange on the subject.) For this reason, I’m trying to get you to address the issue of gay people and salvation in some positive manner – because, aside from people like me, cjhoworth, Libertarian, RTFirefly, and a few others, what they’re getting from public voices claiming to speak for Christianity is that their feelings of love are hateful, they themselves are abominations, and they deserve to be beaten, denied equal rights, and then sent to Hell by a vengeful God – not for actively sinning, but merely for being who they are. I consider that stance despicable, and I don’t think there is any good Christian who truly feels that way. And I do consider you and Jersey as good Christians – most of the time, anyway, until and unless we get into one of these contretemps, and it is sinful of me to judge you. So I’m asking you to swallow your anger and speak to them as Christ would, whatever your opinion of what He might say happens to be – because, for better or worse, you’re representing what organized conservative Christianity has to say in this thread, whether that was your intent or not.
Great testimony to a Christian and a friend. You have to remember that all we know Joe Cool by on this board is what he chooses to share.
Hey, aside from the legal ramifications of marriage (which I support as providing a socially useful default provision), I agree with you. Now, if “Marriage to me is me pledging my love and loyalty to another person in front of God, nothing else,” and ignoring what the Catholic Church may teach, what problem is there with two people of the same sex who believe in God and who love each other doing likewise, in a church that accepts their vows as valid, and the state honoring such a commitment as it will Joe’s and Jersey’s?
I just want to add my own concurrence to what cj had to say here. That affirmation, in the midst of this hatefest, shows you, Joe, at your best. And whatever we may disagree with, I feel the same as cj and what she hypothesizes you agree with us on.
OK. I’m late getting into this thread, and I really am not taking sides here. However, I do take exception to the frivolous use of the word “Racist” when I feel it has no merit.
First of all, Palestinian is not a race. I don’t recall Joe Cool expressing derision toward all Arabs. I shouldn’t have used China as an example. Perhaps Texans would be a better example. If I hate Texas, am I racist against Texans?
Also, I shouldn’t even have used the word “hate”, as I don’t believe he ever said he hates anybody.
He didn’t say “lay utter waste to Palestinians”. He said hostile nations.
[quote]
[li]Wrote that “IMO the Chinese - collectively as a people - gave up any rights and credibility they might have had when they took over Tibet.”[/li][/quote]
He wrote that Palestinians “gave up any rights and credibility they might have had when they started strapping bombs to their sons and daughters and blowing up discotheques, pizza parlors, and shopping malls.”
Why didn’t they? Is it okay to murder innocent civilians? Did the Germans give up rights and credibility when they gassed millions of jews? Am I racist against Germans now?
I can’t agree with his sentiment, but again, Palestinian is not a race. Try taking a poll of Palestinians asking “Do you hate Israel?”. I venture to guess that the results would be high in the yes column. This does not make them a “hateful people”, but it doesn’t make me racist either.
[quote]
[li]Claimed that the Chinese people in Paterson, NJ openly celebrated the 9/11 attacks and refused to retract even though it was shown to be a filthy, slanderous lie.[/ul][/li][/quote]
Who are you to say he didn’t see what he says he saw with own eyes? Lots of people were overjoyed by the 9/11 attacks. Is it not conceivable that some them of could have been could have been in NJ?
Joe_Cool, you have always struck me as a xenophobic toad. And of course, I’m far from the only one who was calling you out for your bigoted comments in that thread. But that’s neither here nor there. Let’s stick to the actual posts, huh? You say:
And if you had had the intelligence to say that instead of moronically drooling that the Palestinians “collectively as a people” should be turned to “utter waste . . . once and for all,” then maybe I wouln’t have reached the obvious conclusion that you’re a bigot. See, that’s the hallmark of a bigot–they refuse to acknowledge the difference between the individual and the group. Individual guilt, for a bigot, is collective guilt. Hence, your words in that thread show you to be a bigot.
And what’s worse is you’re not even content with making your case on the the actual violence, corruption, and general idiocy that has settled in to so much of the occupied territories. No, you have to go out and affirmatively make shit up. Palestinian parents strapping bombs onto their children and sending them out to blow up Israelis? Give me a fucking break.
And no, I don’t believe you for one damn minute when you say the Palestinians of Paterson NJ were celebrating 9/11. It would have been fucking outrageous if that had happened, and the press would have been all over it. Yet there are NO stories reporting on Muslim celebrations in Paterson, and there are PLENTY of stories indicating the Muslims of Paterson were shocked, angered, and dismayed, just like everybody else–except, of course, for the additional fear that they were going to be targeted by bigots who blamed them for the attacks.
And when I showed and quoted those stories to you, all you can come up with is “I saw it”? Sorry, but I’m putting that one on the same shelf as flying saucers, Sasquatch, and the Loch Ness Monster.
I’ll accept that clarification, Polycarp, and I apologize for mistaking your intent.
My “expressed stance” as you put it, has been shaped by the accusations and arguments that I am forced to defend. I’ve not been called out in threads questioning whether Christians enjoy violence or whether God loves everybody, or whether Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. But, when somebody makes the claim that the Bible doesn’t say this or that, when I can look at it and see that it does, then I will respond.
Homosexuality figures very minimally in my worldview. I think it’s “icky”, but there’s no law against that. I have never persecuted anyone for being gay, and I have known and been friends with many (I worked in the restaurant industry for 5 years. If you have any restaurant experience, you know what I mean). While I think homosexual behavior is sinful, as clearly stated in the Bible, I don’t see it as being any more sinful than heterosexual immorality, lying, or abusing people for their religious beliefs (you know who you are). I respect DrMatrix and Cajunman greatly, completely regardless of their sexual preferences. By the same token, there are people, both gay and straight, whom I greatly dislike, not because of their preferences, but because they act like jerks.
And as I’ve already stated, I would defend with my life even a complete stranger being victimized unjustly. So this characterization as a racist, a bigot, a liar, and a gay-basher absolutely infuriates me.
On to your questions:
What, in your opinion, is our proper reaction as Christians towards him and others who have felt this mistreatment?
The same as our response should be to ANY person who has been mistreated. Sympathy when appropriate, encouragement when appropriate, and chiding when appropriate. I don’t believe anyone has the right to feed off of their misfortunes - suffering and injustice are part of the human condition, and your responsibility is to deal with it, get over it, and get on with life. My life has been no bed of roses either, but I don’t live in a world of self-pity. When I see somebody publicly wallowing in misery and soliciting pity, I do not believe the proper response is for everyone to compose sensitive “thank you for sharing, that was sooooooo touching. I’m crying as I read it, you poor tortured soul” posts. As I said regarding the WTC site, we don’t need a place to cry. We need to mourn, get over it, rebuild, and move on. Life doesn’t end because somebody beat you up (unless the beating actually results in life ending). And I draw no special distinction for so-called “hate crimes”. Crime is crime is crime. Killing somebody for being gay is no worse than killing somebody because he had something you wanted to take. Getting beaten up for being gay is no worse than getting beaten up for any other reason. And I will happily offer support and whatever assistance is in my power to anybody who is wrongly victimized. But what I will not do is indulge self-pity.
Does that make me a hateful bigot? If so, then so be it.
What, again in your opinion, should be our proper stance towards our fellow men who identify as Christians and who do “feel the need to persecute” gay people? (I’m confident that Esprix and gobear, among others, will happily supply plenteous evidence of that persecution.)
As I already said to Spoofe, that is the most vile sort of lie and misrepresentation of God and his love. He requires justice, but he prefers repentence and offers mercy.
As Jesus said,
I’ve already said several times before that we are called to judge each other within the church, and let God deal with those outside it. Since those people choose to identify with my God, then they open themselves up to my judgment, and they are sinning far more seriously than the sinners they persecute because Jesus came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentence.
D_Nice: Chastisement noted and accepted with apologies. That was, of course, a quote from Joe which I’d intended to comment on and regarding which subsequent posts addressing the issue showed my intended comments not to be needed. The quote from you that I thought I had properly copied and posted – and should have previewed to ensure I had – was as follows:
And yes, I accept that as a true witness to who Joe is in real life. Nothing of what I said was intended as sarcasm, but as an honest point. As he himself concurred in his graceful answer to me above…
You keep repeating that, and I don’t understand why. Nobody in this thread is saying “poor me.” We are saying that gay people are discriminated against–no legal marriage, no inheritance rights, etc. That’s not self-pity or crybabying–that’s just stating facts. A straight guy can get drunk in Vegas and marry a showgirl in a wedding chapel, and their marriage is legally recognized in every state in the union. Dr.Matrix and CajunMan, in the eyes of the law, are just friends. If one of them were to die intestate, the other would get nothing. If one of them were sick, his family could bar the other from visiting. They get no tax breaks as a couple, and so on. Perhaps you think that’s fair, I don’t.
I don’t think anybody here is indulging in self-pity. What you fail to understand is that getting beaten up in the course of a robbery is awful. But getting attacked because of who you are doesn’t just harm the body–it eats at your soul. I’ve been mugged and I’ve been gaybashed, and while the physical pain from the mugging was worse, the gaybashing left scars inside where you can’t see. Ask any black person who’s been called a “nigger.” Ask any Jew who’s been called a “kike.” Ask any gay person who’s been called “fag” or “dyke.” Nobody here is asking for pity. What we are asking you to understand is simply that words hurt. When you and your co-religionists refer to us as sinners, or as H4E said, “abominations,” merely because of who we love, you are giving your tacit approval to societal attitudes that say gay people are inferior, perverted, indecent.
Sure, it’s great that you’d stick up for me at a Dopefest. But would you do it at the ballot box when an antigay referendum is proposed? Will you laugh at a fag joke told in your presence, or will you notify the joketeller that mocking gay people for who they are isn’t cool?
gobear, I was stating my opinion in response to a question from polycarp. My complete opinion along with generalizations. I wasn’t talking specifically about anyone on the board. Although I’m sure you’ve noticed there is a widespread tendency to have to dredge through piles of posts of exactly the type I noted above ( sniff That was so touching. I can’t type. you owe me a new monitor because mine has killed itself in a fit of depression after displaying your heart-rending story. I shall now knit you a sweater out of my tears).
JD and I had to go to counseling and submit to a somewhat grueling and intense interview before the pastor agreed that he would marry us next month. And rightfully so. I believe that what we are doing, while it is recognized legally, is first and foremost a religious ceremony before God, and not the court or the state, and the church has the obligation to ensure that the union in question meets its biblical and moral standards before bestowing its blessing upon said union.
And regarding the examples you made, I agree. A drunk guy marrying a girl he just met should not be sanctioned by any church, not even a wedding chapel (and personally don’t think it should be sanctioned even by a Justice of the Peace or the States, except for the vital need for the government to respect personal freedom; even freedom to make stupid decisions). Additionally, I agree that DrMatrix and CajunMan have a more valid relationship than the above. If either DrM or CM were to be sick or die, of course the other should inherit property or have a right to visitation. HOWEVER, since homosexuality is specifically called a sin in the bible, and since a casual drunken marriage makes a mockery of the institution, a bible-believing church cannot sanction either one. Hence my advocation for a nonreligious civil state of union with all the legal benefits of marriage such as taxation, inheritance, and visitation.
See? If you take the time to pay attention to what I say, we don’t disagree nearly as much as you think.
And finally, yes I laugh at gay jokes. I laugh at white jokes, black jokes, jew jokes, mexican jokes, italian jokes, polish jokes, American jokes, French jokes, the puerto rican day episode of Seinfeld, etc. I laugh at anything that is funny. If you can’t laugh at yourself, then you have a problem. And ditto that if you can’t handle somebody else telling or laughing at a joke that pokes fun at a group you happen to identify with.
So, Joe, when someone who has not only stated that she is opposed to equal rights for homosexuals but that she in fact would discriminate against them herself were she in a position to (re: housing) is called on her hateful attitude that is “verbal rape”.
Yet those who have been abused in various ways by bigots were “asking for it”.
This is a really shitty attitude to have, belittling the suffering of others.
So in your little world “verbal rape” is worse than gaybashing?
Oh, and of course it can’t be overlooked that calling someone an “abomination” and proclaiming a willingness to discriminate against them somehow don’t qualify as “verbal rape” in Joes little world.
Well, if by, “I hate China/Texas/Hooterville” you mean, “Man, I visited China, and I just had a horrible time-I just didn’t like it there at all-the food was terrible, and the laws were awful and it was too hot…”
I think that would be okay.
However, having never been there, I DO hate Cleveland. It’s like, a local law. We Pittsburghers kind of have to hate Cleveland.
There’s this piece of paper, grendel, that some of us think is pretty neat…it’s called the Constitution. Evidently you weren’t aware of it, but in this country, people have the right to hold whatever opinions and take whatever political positions they like, even if those positions and opinions don’t have the grendel stamp of approval. That is called freedom of expression (or speech).
Shouting her down with hate filled insults is in direct violation of that principle, as you are denying her right to expression. And stripping her of her rights effectively strips her of her value as a human being. (“To strip of value” hmm…where have I heard that phrase before? must be something I read)
We all have figured out that she holds opinions that you don’t agree with or like. That is, sadly, far short of what any reasonable person would call hatred. YOU are acting like a hateful jerk, not she.
And your inability to comprehend what you read notwithstanding, I have clarified my statement above. The way you and others treat people is more likely the reason you get beaten (if in fact you do) than that you are gay.
To pre-empt any claims that “she didn’t say that”…
From this thread, [qoute]*Originally posted by His4ever *
**I’ve a little something to say on this housing issue, etc. From a Christian’s perspective if they made a law that you couldn’t refuse gays housing that would be discriminatory against a Christians’ right to live their faith according to the Bible and their conscience. Suppose a Christian owns a rental property. He or she considers that he or she is responsible to God for what goes on in their homes or homes that they own. Therefore this person would consider it wrong to rent to homosexuals or any couple that was not married, for that matter. Nor should they be forced to do so. It would be their property and they shouldn’t have to do something that deliberately violates their beliefs of right and wrong. **
[/QUOTE]
) but I have a news flash for you: Let’s just say we were all at a dopefest in NY and some gay haters (even though you seem to think that’s us) started causing problems. Mark my words that Joe_cool, the alleged gaybasher, would be THE FIRST TO BEAT THEIR ASSES INTO THE GROUND FOR YOU! Maybe if you chose your friends wisely you wouldn’t have to worry about watching your own back.
