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What I said in the other thread.
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The fallacy of accident exists when you argue from the general to the specific. I don’t think there’s any real doubt that as a general matter, men express a higher sex drive than women do. That means absolutely nothing when considering an individual case, however.
More pervasive, I think, than the notion that women are less horny than men is the (often unquestioned, unexamined) assumption that women obtain sex by responding to something men are actively doing.
I can state that that isn’t universally true, either. (Seems to be wrong on two levels: first, many women “make sex happen” by doing non-overt things that guys respond to by making an overt pass, which means the original intiative was really hers; and then, beyond that, yes, women do make overt initiatives, albeit not as much as I wish they would)
Yes, it does.
Well, Ok, fair enough that you need to get it off your chest - but a woman who has a high sex drive says she does and lots of others do as well strikes a bad nerve with you?
This really sounds like you’re coming back with some pretty heavy personal baggage and dumping it on me. And I really don’t have the facilities to help you.
The whole point of the thread was, you should have respect for the other person’s sex drive - so you shouldn’t assume females are putting out just for the sake of a trade.
I have no freakin’ idea what IOW means but this is frankly insulting. Do you know me? Have you asked a single thing about me? You just assume this?
I don’t disagree with you on any of this.
You are way reading more into it. I am not bragging, but damn, why shouldn’t I? Men have gotten away with it for centuries, maybe it’s my turn.
And who said woman was “off the hook”? I can only speak for my experience, after all…
Sigh. My point was NOT and NEVER was “all women like porn”. My point was “All women do not dislike porn”, or “not all women dislike porn”. Thanks for getting it completely wrong. :smack:
Mal, I’m sorry, I don’t know where that crazy math came from. If you’re 45, I’m 29, and that’s 16 years difference, not 6. I would have been 4 when you were 20. I did think you were way younger, though.
Look, all I’m saying is I’m tired of people being shocked or horrified because I am interested in sex. Bricker, taxi78cab, thank you for the calm, rational answers. 
But you’re open to the idea that others might *want * to see that happen, right? 
Ooh … I can’t believe I just wrote that.
Different strokes for different folks.
(And yes, all puns intended)
Are we reading wildly different boards?
Because this seems like making it your personal goal to spread the word that the earth isn’t flat.
While I have come across some of the attitudes in the OP some times & places - they seem pretty much the minority here, on the SDMB. Not a significant or very vocal minority, either.
Whoa. I think we are posting at cross purposes here.
No-you missed the point of my post. I don’t care what your sex drive is–taxicab said it much better than I did. It isn’t that a woman has a strong sex drive that hits a nerve–it’s the subtle expectation that in debunking the “frigid myth” that the pendulum swings to the opposite end of the arc for women.
I am not dumping anything on you. Why would I? I was responding to the tone of the thread-the tone that it is somehow more enlivening to be continually randy.
What trade? The barter system of sex that I know many a married couple “indulges” in? I make no such assumption, ANYWHERE-I have no interest in such; I make no claim as to anything you practice in your personal life, or any poster here, for that matter. Where did this notion come from? The only mention of “a trade” is in your OP.
IOW=In other words. I DON’T assume this about you–you are taking my entire post as if it is addressed to you. I was referring to sex in general. If the drive is so intense that one MUST orgasm daily, isn’t sex then all about the orgasm? 'Cause there are other ways to relate to a partner–I really doubt you don’t know this.
Thank you–that clears up alot.
Brag away. Just don’t expect complete adulation that you have a strong sex drive. To many, it’s irrelevant. I would say the same to any guy. Have at it, by all means. I am not here to stop you or condemn you–I just don’t want the implied criticism and judgement if I don’t feel the same. Again, it’s NOT your posts I am referring to–I am responding to the thread as a whole. I may well have mistaken the tone of it–and if I have, I apologize.
I didn’t say that you said that all women like porn. Again, I read the thread as covertly stipulating that horniness and liking porn must go hand in hand. Not true. I read the thread as a larger message of “be like men when it comes to sex. Like what they like, indulge in habits that they indulge in”–most women prefer erotica writing to sex, from all I’ve heard and seen. If you don’t --fine by me. I am talking in generalities and you are talking personally.
Who here is shocked? I’m glad you have a great sex life–really, I am not being snarky at all. I think you raise some valid points about preconceptions about women and sex. Again, I wanted to show another facet, that’s all.
Mal --I mean this kindly, but I think there may well be something else wrong in your relationship. I am not a therapist, but I have been to a few regarding this issue. “Bed” acts as a mirror to your relationship–your wife may need some indivdual counselling or you two may benefit from some couples counselling. I hope things get better for you.
I believe men and women do have equal sex drives, just not equal motivations. From everything I’ve read (which isn’t much and certainly isn’t comprehensive all-knowing Truth From Above), men seek sex in order to relax and feel an emotional connection, and women seek sex when they are relaxed and do feel an emotional connection.
Hey, maybe it ain’t right for 100% of people all the time, but it’d explain a hell of a lot.
Bricker, my man, I love your posts, but this is one of the very few times I’m going to have to disagree with you.
While I think there are differences between how men and women get aroused, once aroused, a woman loves sex and aches for it as much as men do.
The difference isn’t in the sex drive, it’s in kindling the sex drive. Men tend to get aroused very quickly at the drop of a hat. Women need a bit more time. I picked the best analogy up in a book some time ago: “Men’s arousal is like throwing a match into gasoline; women’s arousal like lighting charcoal.” This is why mostly men enjoy porn. But that doesn’t mean that women like sex any less then men. It just means that men need to be a bit more patient in stoking the fire.
Another big consideration is technique. I don’t think anyone here would seriously argue that it’s harder for women to achieve orgasm. Patience is a virtue here, too. And, I might add from personal experience, books (Nerds tend to do a lot of reading about sex), and conversations with lovers and non-lovers, if you take the trouble to learn the ins and outs and overs and throughs of oral sex, your opinion on just how much women hate sex will probably change.
In short, guys, stop blaming women for your own ham-handedness and learn to take your time.
Just my $0.02.
Another
I really like what you’ve said-especially the first bit about ‘kindling’.
That’s what I think I was trying to express in my first post re being in emotional sync.
Yes, my SO may come home hornier than I am on any given night.
With a little bit of ‘work’ on his part however, and by work I mean taking the time to talk about our days first and drink a glass or two of wine and relax, we’re normally soon on the same page.
I. Am Not. Ham. Handed.
The woman I used to get the “Oh God, you’re not randy, are you?” treatment from, I could stoke to such heights that she could exclaim “How can I ever not want to do it?”. And still go right back to not wanting to, next time. She used to resent the fact that, if she wasn’t particularly feeling like it, I could get her foaming-at-the-mouth turned on if she gave me half a chance. So if she was feeling grumpy, hormonal or whatever, she’d see to it that I didn’t get the half-chance. Simple.
And being a nerd who has read a lot about sex, and been fascinated by the entire subject since before Anaamika was born, I have always been keen to hand out oral sex. Mrs M., however, stopped receiving some time ago. (She used to like it.) Maybe three or four times a year, I get to receive, but the keywords are “seldom, reluctantly and briefly”, and certainly never after she’s come.
Harder for women to reach orgasm? Give me that half-chance, and I’ll guarantee you get there. Unwillingness on the part of my womenfolk to up their sexual desire has not been tied to a lack of orgasms. I was always delighted to take as long as it took and, if she ended up crying “Enough” because she couldn’t take any more orgasms for the time being, I figured I’d done my job right.
Anaamika, honey, I thought you’d got the math wrong (which is a little surprising for a woman in a geek occupation); I’d had this idea you were still under 30. Ah well, so close and yet so far.
Most kind. But apart from the sex, we don’t get along badly, partly because I don’t harp on about how fucking awful the sex is. ::shrug:: When I met her, I was sufficiently lowered in my expectations that I was, more or less, willing to settle for someone who wouldn’t steal the spoons or run out on me and take the kids plus half my fortune. She wanted to be a virgin on her wedding day, so I accommodated her. On the whole, I got what I saw on the packet, barring her putting on a hundred pounds within a decade and failing to make good on the sexual keenness she was advertising pre-wedding. But when you consider what some people get, it’s not so bad. As I say, by hook or by crook my sex drive has dwindled to match the circumstances.
To summarize:
- Some people are men. Others are women.
- Some people like to have sex a lot, others not so much.
- It’s nice when you couple with one who has a similar bent as in Item 2.
- There appears to be little agreement as to whether men or women desire sex more or less than the other, however it remains a contentious issue.
I’d guess these points have not changed significantly since he Flying Spaghetti Monster created us all.
This makes me so sad-not because I think that sex is the by all and by all of a marriage but because it can be such a rewarding and vital part of one.
And forgive me but it does sound like there are other, deeper issues at play here-not necessarily with you but with your wife.
I’ve spent some time ‘researching’ if you will, some sex chat sites because of a bad novel I’m trying to write.
What struck me most was the number of men who said that they were happily married and not looking to change that but also stated that their wives were not interested in sex-at least to the degree that they were.
I never imagined that there were that many frustrated men out there.
Well, that probably won’t work with me. I’m a dude, too.
Look, Malacandra, when I said that women’s sex drive matched men’s, I didn’t mean that there weren’t conditions attached. A woman’s sex drive, like a man’s, can dwindle for any number of reasons. I’m talking about women’s sex drives in general, not about every single female’s desires. What works for the whole doesn’t always work for the individual, and vice-versa.
Sigh . . . And another thing . . . and I hesitate to bring this up, but here goes . . .
I’m not trying to rag on you. I don’t know you or your partner. I’m not Dr. Phil, nor do I play him on TV . . .
It does sound like there might be something else wrong besides the sex itself. A hundred pounds in ten years? That’s not good, mana. Besides the very real health risks it presents, this brings up the possibility of unresolved psychological issues. Do you think there might be something she wants to get off her chest?
Is she aware that you talk about choosing her because your expectations were low? I realize that’s probably not the real reason you chose her, but you know more than a few women are kind of fragile about that sort of thing. Even if you say that sort of thing jokingly . . . you know?
It’s none of my business I know, but would you at least consider sitting down with her and talking these issues out? Maybe talking with someone if you both decide it would be for the better?
Once again, I’m not saying this to rag on you. I realize that I’ve hijacked a thread about women’s sex drives in general to address your specific issues. I also realize that I’m overstepping my bounds by getting in your business, and if you’re a bit ticked at me, I can’t say as I blame you.
It’s just that this isn’t the first time I’ve heard this sort of thing from friends and such, and after seeing how these situations play out (“work out” would be much too kind of a term for it), I couldn’t just let it go without getting the above off my chest.
We now return you to the regularly scheduled thread.
I haven’t done any statistical analysis, but anecdotal evidence suggests it’s rife. Stereotypically men are supposed to brag about their sexual prowess; more typically in my experience, they bemoan how awful their sex lives are. Mind you, I wanted to slap the workmate who complained that he could remember when three times a week felt like being rationed. Three times a week, though I don’t know that I could manage it now (under some circumstances I’d be willing to find out), has been an unattained Shangri-La all my life.
The woman I mentioned above, not Mrs M., used another line featuring the pseudo-statistic that “2.4 times a week is the national average” so we ought to keep it to twice a week and save up for a bloody good 1.2. Nice theory, however… it’s just another variant on “Not now, maybe later, but I reserve the right to welsh on the ‘later’ part”.
With a proper concern for enlightenment, we now make marital rape a prosecutable offence. We also got rid of the silly notion that marriage entitles a man to sex; mere lack of sex isn’t grounds for divorce (given that grounds are needed). But adultery’s still grounds, to say nothing of being frowned upon even by such tolerant folks as you find here on the Dope. Take it all in all, I don’t say that all, most or necessarily many women enter marriage with dishonest intentions, but the implied bargain that he’ll be faithful and she’ll give him no reason to stray isn’t looking as sound as it used to; his entitlements have diminished, but his obligations have stayed the same, and if she wants to play dog in the manger, it’s hard to see how we could give her more support.
Possibly Mrs M might benefit from some therapy, but have all the women I’ve had sexual relationships with been in need of therapy? (I’m trying hard to overlook the common factor here, you understand :dubious: )
Tellingly, although there’s a lot of specialist porn about the place, the big volume-seller, and certainly the kind that I made most use of as a single guy, was on a very simple theme: getting it on with a hot girl who is into it as much as we are. No fantasies of power or control or subjugation or any of that: just finding someone who liked sex for sex’s sake, with no complications, or as a “men’s issues” book I read put it rather bitterly, “without holding out for money, dinner or furs”.
Mind you, going to sex chat sites you’re possibly self-selecting for dissatisfied married men.
There’s a problem with your theory, Linty. Marriage is HARD. Maintaining a relationship with another person is difficult enough without trying to lump it into the ‘go get therapy and get help’ bucket.
i’m going through a week here where I’ve been off four of five days because Daycare won’t take the kids if they’ve had diahhrea in 24 hours. That means 11am? Sorry, the kids out the rest of today and ALL of tomorrow.
I’ve got a 93 year old Grandfather who is not permitted to return to his single life in his apartment as he is no longer able to support himself. I’m the clsest living relative.
Mother in Law has ‘pseudo gout’ and is effectively off her feet for the duration.
Wife just got burned in the kitchen last night. 2nd degree. Kinda hurts. This is all within the last five days.
My point? Shit happens and maintaining a healthy libido frequently takes a back seat to the realities of an extended relationship with someone. It doesn’t take a therapist to let a person know what’s going on…And healthy sex in the bounds of a healthy relationship is pretty damn good…but at some time or another, pretty much ALL relationships are dysfunctional.
If a person gives up equal libido for an otherwise decent relationship, I’d submit they’re the rule rather than the exception.
And from where I stand in my 30’s, with 3 year old twins, a 93 year old Grandfather, and parents nearing their 60’s, my life’s just gonna get more crappy for the duration…and it has nothing to do with my relationship with my wife, or our libidos (which, for the moment, are thankfully close. But they haven’t always been that way.)
I’d like to make one other point concerning women and sexuality. I’m a woman in my 40’s. I’ve also had a high sex drive since before I was a teenager, sometimes embarrassingly so. (No, you may not ask. Or, more accurately, you may ask, but I won’t answer.) I’ve tried giving up masturbation for Lent; I have never succeeded, even with the Sunday loop hole. I tend to initiate sex at least as often as my partner does, and I have a particular weakness for watching porn MST3K style. I can even get horny just thinking about certain images.
I was also a virgin until I was 26 and I suspect I’ve had fewer partners in my life than some people here have had in one night. It wasn’t for lack of desire, believe me. When I was in my early 20’s, there were nights when I was so horny I just wanted to find a likely-looking fellow and find out what I was missing. I didn’t do it because I felt it would be morally wrong. I didn’t believe in sex outside of marriage, and, when my engagement failed to turn into marriage, I had to do readjust my morals and standards and cope with the guilt, even though I wasn’t the one who ended the engagement. I did enjoy the daylights out of being engaged, though, and even found some kinks can be a lot of fun!
I’m not a complete prude, although I was prudish when I was younger. I have an almost embarrassing weakness for double, triple, and quadruple entendres, and I’ve had to bite my tongue to keep from making them in church. I just don’t believe in having sex outside of a committed relationship. I make that clear up front, and I don’t regret that decision, even though it’s meant turning down some guys who I know would be a lot of fun in bed. I may have missed some terrific opportunities, but I’ve never had a bad time in bed, nor have the gentlemen I have bedded. I’m not telling others how to live their lives. I’m just explaining how I’ve lived mine and I have very few regrets.
Bottom line: just because a woman doesn’t lose her virginity before she can drink or can count her number of partners on one hand doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a high libido or won’t enjoy it when she finally does agree to have sex with someone. Hell, think of it gentlemen: a woman with a high sex drive looking to let loose after a few years of celibacy. My advice to you, once she finally does say “Yes”, is eat well before hand and get a place with room service. You’re both going to be busy for a while, although she might decide to dine in, so to speak. 
CJ
Fair enough, UB, marriage IS hard. It does seem hard for you right now. That’s a lot of things to take care of at once.
In my defense, I didn’t actually suggest they rush right out and find a therapist. I suggested (a)that there might be something deeper here than “Chicks don’t dig sex as much as guys do,” which, as I’ve said before I don’t believe applies to all or even most women, and (b)That he could benefit from actually talking with her and seeing where all this lay. I agree with you about not seeking therapy unless it’s necessary, but as you’ve said, marriage is hard. It’s too hard to get through without having a clear line of communication with your SO.
And, to get back on track with the OP, it helps make my point that a lack of sex in a marriage or relationship can’t be placed at the feet of women’s innate sex drive. There are too many other variables, too much testimony, and too much personal experience to the contrary for me to accept that.
Good luck with your grandfather, mother-in-law, and wife. I hope it gets better for you.
Bingo, Unintentionallyblank .
I guess I got so fussed about this thread because it seems so unrealistic. Well, not the thread, but the topic.
Yeah–if I didn’t have 3 kids and a soul sucking job and had TIME to devote to arousing my partner and he me, maybe we would get horizontal more often. (but then again, most likely not, since we have a myriad of issues…).
As it is, on any given day, I deal with the daily round of chores and errands, kids and their varied and immediate needs, and work 24 hours a week outside the home.
Life, especially family life, gets in the way of a consistently great sex life. There is physical fatigue, lack of privacy, anxiety over a loved one, financial worries, whatever. So, again, an effort must be made to achieve privacy and deliberate attempts to put aside worries etc need to be made–on both sides. I dunno-maybe it’s just easier to bitch about the other partner. <shrugs>
I like what jlzania said–often the disparity can be addressed and disposed of by some effort on the part of the hornier person. I can only guess that most times, it isn’t, so resentment and withdrawal ensues.
Mal --you sound very bitter. I am sorry for that. We none of us seem to end up with exactly what we signed on for–but I think you could impact on your situation for the betterment of both of you. I’ll shut up–enough of a hijack.
mr bus guy --I think you’re spot on. But I have doubts about this spaghetti monster…are you sure he can fly?
This isn’t quite what I meant–I DO think that women’s libidos should be as recognized and valued (?) as men’s. The unrealistic part comes with life itself. Once we agreed to have sex every day, just to see where it would lead us. And alot of it was fun–but some many other things got put on hold because of the commitment. It was too much. Others could do fine with it, but it didn’t work for me (or us).
Anyhoo, carry on.