Great post @Larry_Borgia. Well said and dispassionately so. Most of us here wish the OP success and happiness however he defines it. As long as that’s not gained at the failure and misery of someone else. Which doesn’t seem to be his schtick at all.
I might add one item to your good list.
Indeed, it’s not.
It shouldn’t be that difficult to meet people who are sincere about wanting a healthy relationship and are currently in a place where they are (psychologically, legally, whateverly) able to have one. And yet…
It used to be easy, actually. Something must have changed at some point when I was in my mid-to-late 20s. That’s when it seemed to have started going downhill. I’ll have to think about what it was.
These two comments are spot-on in that they go straight to the very root of the problem.
Again, thanks for your patience and your kind, insightful remarks.
I rarely have black and white rules of advice for relationships, but I’m willing to make an acception.
If anyone, male or female, mentioned to me that they had started dating someone who still sounded bitter about a relationship that happened 35 years ago, when they were 15(!), I would not only insist they run away, I would insist that they block the person’s phone number and them on all social media.
You can’t be serious about this!? Kids this age break off relationships because their bf / gf has a new pimple or wore the wrong color of socks. How long were you in the relationship? A few days? A few weeks? A few months? It doesn’t matter. You and she were 15.
You don’t see any problems with this?
You keep talking about “rules” of relationships and such. What are these rules? If someone does the “right thing” their partner is absolutely obligated to continue the relationship?
Almost all relationships end and no amount of being a “nice guy” will change that.
If I understand this right, you had two dates with a someone who was either crazy, emotionally immature or all twisted up in a messy relationship to the degree that they can’t even send a message saying they are going through a rough patch.
Why is this making you physically ill? I think most people would be really relieved that they had dodged a bullet so early on in the relationship.
The ups and downs here are only unexpected by you. Hint: any person who is that hot and cold on and after the second date is someone to run away from.
If you haven’t learned how to recognize this, it’s on you.
Then don’t kiss and have sex until you get a better feel if they are batshit crazy or not.
This is where you seem to be blaming the other person for your lack of judgment.
Even as someone who only reads about these things, dating in one’s late 40s and above sucks because you have to sift through a lot of people with lots of baggage. This is true for both men and women.
If you are expecting true love on the first few dates with virtual strangers, it’s going to be a rough life.
But it does happen, tho. Had it not, I wouldn’t be currently sitting in an Ukrainian farmhouse, lol.
I don’t follow your threads, but I don’t believe you have a history of repeated failures, either.
Surely, you can see the difference.
Oh, without a doubt. I read threads like these and am amazed at how different my approach to the topic, and activities, of dating is/was. To the point where I don’t know if I can offer any advice, tbh.
Or, toxic people are treating everyone the same, and people who are more resist to toxic people get the hell out of Dodge.
To be fair, I don’t know if anyone can offer advice here.
Thanks for the compliment. It wasn’t so much a list as a syllogism, though. As @TokyoBayer says, toxic people treat everyone the same. Some people avoid the drama and some people are drawn to it.
I’ve thought a lot about that because my mother married an abuser and my sister and I were in bad relationships before. Lots of relatives had serious problems.
My aunt said that my father initially was quite charming and gave my mother a lot of attention. Only later did he really show his controlling behavior, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were “tells” that had my mother know what to look out for, she could have seen it and ran away.
I went out with a really gorgous woman; the kind that people stop and stare at, and it was the same hot and cold, highs and lows. I didn’t have enough self-confidence and I was just happy that someone beautiful “loved me.” Yikes. That was one of the more cringe worthy points in my life.
My WAG is that abusers, toxic people and emotional messes usually have the ability to be charming or “loving” but most people are able to recognize the problems and disengage where others get something from the relationship.
Some like the drama, some like the “love”, the attention, the lure of fixing people or whatever else.
The last “relationship” for the OP had more red flags than a May Day parade in Beijing. He just doesn’t see them.
Of course.
The only reason I mentioned her is because I’ve been thinking a lot about how my love life unfolded, and realized that a few of the problems I encountered later, in more meaningful relationships, were already in place then.
Well, things like respect, loyalty, reliability, affection. Perhaps not rules but basic criteria that I’d hope we can all agree on. Is this a hot take ?
I now see the “bullet dodged” aspect, actually, in part thanks to what I’ve read above. And as I wrote earlier, I know we only had the absolute beginnings of a potential something. It’s OK for it to fail.
What is making me physically ill is the neverending stream of toxicity. This is just one case. I’m sparing you the details of half a dozen other. I feel like I’ve (almost) literally been poisoned.
I don’t. But I do expect basic decency.
There’s emotional baggage, which we all have, especially as we get older. Then, there’s knowing that you are unable to pursue a relationship because of past trauma, legal problems, lack of time and yet, sign up to a dating app, go on dates, and make future plans.
That’s not baggage. That’s deliberate deceit.
Anyway. I’m going to step away from this thread for the moment.
My younger daughter is staying with me (her mother couldn’t “deal with her” anymore and “needs to relax”…). That’s an opportunity for me to find some genuine purpose. We’ve had a lot a deep conversations in the past week. I hope it does her some good. And we’re going to New York with my older daughter next week !
It’s also a good reason not to go on dates in the near future. I, for one, know that don’t have the time for that at the moment.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me a half a dozen times? Hmmmm.
As someone said earlier, there’s a much larger problem than what people on message boards can help you with.
People’s self-knowledge is imperfect. Perhaps she thought it could work, but when faced with the reality of trying to engage with a new partner, she realized she was over her head. I think it was decent of her to be upfront about that when she realized it, and back away quickly. And yes, you are lucky to have gotten out so cleanly.
After two dates? Yes, that’s a hot take. I haven’t actually used dating apps, having not dated since they became popular. But I’ve “followed” lots of my friends’ dating adventures in their blogs and such (venues like your post here) and I have a sense for how these things typically work.
I expect loyalty and reliability of my husband. He made explicit promises to me. But someone you are basically still in the “let’s check each other out” stage of dating? Naw. I would hope for respect. I would hope the other party would keep the promises they made (e.g., show up at the coffee shop at the agreed-upon time.) But two dates is still in the “is this someone i want to get attached to?” stage. Maybe you feel affection, maybe you feel boredom. Maybe you think the sex was great but the personality makes the package not worth it. Maybe you like the person but just didn’t feel a spark sexually.
I think it’s a very hot take to expect someone you met in a dating app, who went out with you twice, to feel obligated to you in the way that words like “loyalty” and “reliability” imply.
And what’s wrong with dating someone if you aren’t sure you will be a good match? The purpose of dating is to figure that out. Well, for those looking for a serious relationship, anyway. I do think it’s decent for people to be honest as to whether they are looking for a relationship or just looking for a good time this coming weekend. That latter is a legitimate use of dating apps, too. And i think most apps let you specify which you are looking for.
I’m reminded of Hanlon’s Razor: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
What you see as “deliberate deceit” may be someone who is not being honest with herself or who is not sure what she wants or is just trying to muddle through as best she knows how.
I think you’re right, and I hope @Moonrise reads and thinks about what you’ve written. I am wondering if he has an “anxious attachment style” that leads him to expect too much too soon.
Could certainly be.
OTOH, I read his comments abut loyalty and reliability not as applying to the specific behavior seen on a second date, but being personality attributes the other person was even capable of.
e.g. if the conversation makes it clear this person has no concept of loyalty to anyone or anything beyond their own moment-to-moment satisfaction, well that’s a “loyalty problem”, but it’s not his relationship or this second date we’re on.
Or at least that’s how I interpreted those words in that spot. YMMV.
ETA: great cite. It might or not be applicable to the OP, or to me, but it is a potential eye-opener to anyone. Seems obvious, but if this stuff really was obvious, humanity would not have so many unhappy relationships and unhappy solos.
First of all, her sharing the lawyer’s letter seems weird to me.
Also your response has an undertone of “toxic masculinity” entitlement beneath an overtone of passive aggressive “nice guy” victimization. You met a girl, went on a few dates, it didn’t work out. You can be disappointed" but she really doesn’t need to provide a reason that “sits well with you”. And based on your stated history of dating “toxic women” she seems to have put up enough red flags that you should be relieved.
I’m not sure if the OP can make those sorts of judgments but instead jumps right into “this is a commitment” that you can’t back out of.
I don’t think that’s the logical conclusion that can be taken from his comments.
If someone lacks the ability to spot that many red flags, I question the ability to discern deeper personality characteristics by the second date.
Going back to his OP:
Everything he says screams of a fear of a woman ending a relationship, no matter how short they were dating, and his insistence that if he “plays by the rules” then the woman shouldn’t be able to end the relationship.
Sharing the letter doesn’t make sense at all. There has to be more to the story.
There does seem to be too much of the “nice guy” rules.
OTOH, there is a fair point to be made that there does seem to be a lack of traditional “rules” when it comes to dating and relationships.
Traditionally most people tend to date around and hook up a lot when they are younger with all the “teenage drama” that goes with it, Once they start hitting their 20s and 30s they tend to look for someone to settle down and raise a family ideally grow old with. That is a very “normal” path that for some reason seams to get disparaged a lot these days.
If a significant number of people are not longer interested in that path, then dating just becomes a transactional exercise. One problem with that approach long term is that people, knowingly or not, develop skills that facilitate short term romantic encounters instead of long-term relationship skills, which are very different.
So it’s very easy to fall for someone after a few dates who puts all their focus in dressing well, making themselves look attractive, engaging in charming conversation, and sexual prowess. But if that’s all there is to them, the relationship isn’t going to last very long because that’s not a relationship. Relationships involve a lot of mundane day to day stuff and putting up with the other person’s bullshit or just doing things for someone other than themselves from time to time.
I just think a lot of people don’t want to do that these days. They are so focused on their own shit that as soon as a relationship starts to be the least bit “not fun”, they move on.
I understand. But the problem is that if that happens a number of times and you still don’t understand how the game is played then you’ll get hurt again and again.
It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t fall in love with anyone, but people also need to develop an outlook which takes into consideration possible motives for the other person.
A valid casus conteri if you will.
The traditional rules exist, and there are still plenty of people who do choose to follow them (less young people, it is true). But why is that necessarily a bad thing? If people wanted these rules, they could choose to follow them. In the past, there was overwhelming social (and even economic) pressure to conform to those rules; but as you follow liberal values to their logical conclusion and release more and more people to do as they please with more and more of their lives, these pressures decreased.
That’s not to say this is gone - unlike most people of my generation, I’m a homeowner, and in large part that’s because my wife and I met in college, lived together for a couple of years afterwards, then got married a few years before having kids. That’s a good chunk of time when we had two full incomes working towards a common goal. The second we got married, we joined our bank accounts and started saving for a house. If we had waited till our late 20s to pair up, we certainly wouldn’t be homeowners today. So in that sense, the economic pressure is still there. But that’s a far cry from the role women had in the past, where earning a full income and living alone wasn’t even on the table.
So there’s far less pressure to get married; I think that’s a good thing. On the other hand, I do think we have probably overcorrected a bit in our social view of marriage and children. I get the sense that there is a not insignificant portion of young people today who view marriage or children as a downright bad thing, as the end of their own personal lives; and while parenthood is certainly a new chapter in life, I think it’s a chapter we should celebrate, not dread.
I suggest part of nearly every “he said she said” battle of the sexes thread is that there is no longer one “game” and one set of rules. Things were never as clear as rose-colored hindsight would have it, but what few signposts were in the swamp 20 or 40 years ago have mostly been swept away.
I’m 65 and starting to date new people for the first time since I was about 25. I wasn’t great at it then. I find that much of how I first think of it now is conditioned by the needs and goals of a teen or 20-something. At second glance I see the problem with that and adjust my thinking. Which still leaves my feeling a bit cold / discomfited.
Of course I’m vastly more mature, better off, etc., than I was then. I also have more battle damage than I did. As does every potential date. Learning to assess which battle damage is par for the course, which is endearing, and which is a deal-breaker is a new skill I didn’t need at 24. The unblemished apple simply doesn’t exist at this point in life, and accepting that fact alone can be wrenching.
The OP is not a kid. Dating in your e.g. 40s is a real minefield due to so many of the same things I’m facing. Have they been screwing it up by the numbers since they were young? Perhaps. But “this game” is not just one game it’s many. And darned hard to play when you’re joining midstream or in the later innings. Or are stuck trying to play an obsolete version of the “rules” that nobody else is still using.