[QUOTE=twickster]
Nope – the conversations have taken place, no change has occurred. The two of you just arent’ sexually compatible, for whatever reason.
[/QUOTE]
There are some incompatibilities that can never be corrected. Sex can be one of those. I would never tell someone they were a dud, but it can definitely be a reason that the relationship comes to a screeching halt. I’d never share that with the dumpee.
[QUOTE=buns3000]
I have to say I’m wondering what the specifics of the numerous discussions were given that this is apparently the best explanation of the problem you can give us… but that would definitely get into TMI territory. Besides which, it would be none of my goddamn business.
[/QUOTE]
Definitely TMI, and definitely none of your beeswax. 
Let me see if I can introduce a little clarity here. I’m positing that if Person A (let’s call her “She”) is so thoroughly disaatisfied with Person B’s sexual performance, has discussed it with him, etc. to death, and is finally convinced that he’s not going to meet her minimal standards between the percale sheets, and so she has resolved to break up with him, she is
a) not obliged to get specific as to her reasons, but
b) if he acts puzzled (as people often do when told “I’m breaking up with you,” however nicely it’s said) and specifically asks for further details as to why,
c) then she would be obliged by my lights to make some sincere attempt to comply and provide her thinking.
Where **Twix ** and I seem to disagree on this matter of etiquette, is whether being so instructed is just rude, sadistic, mean-spirited and Just Not Done, or whether it might be helpful and provide some clarity as to why and wherefore the breakup.
Me, I might be hurt to be told I’m a lousy lay, but I think I’d rather be told than be mystified. In a sense it might even be comforting.
How is being told you’re lousy in bed comforting? Scenario:
Let’s suppose that I’ve tried my level best to accomodate some woman’s sexual requests. She has asked me sweetly if I could put some sensitive and delicate part of my anatomy in intimate conjunction with some sensitive and delicate part of her anatomy, and to do this for upwards of twenty minutes at a clip with considerable vigor and energy. I comply.
“How was that?” I ask eagerly. “Pretty good, huh?”
She extends her hand flat and wiggles it rapidly, in the universal sign for “Eh, so-so.”
“Vraiment?” I exclaim. I then get back into the position, and resume my previous activities with more vigor and more energy and go for a half an hour. My reward is a shrug.
After a week or so of trying to please this woman, I’m given the “breakup” speeech. My response, upon beig informed that I’m lousy in bed, is essentially relief. I don’t know how to do it any better than I’ve been doing it, I just (as Mick so nicely phrases it) don’t have that much jam, and I’m kinda glad to be done trying.
She may think she’s informed me of my inadequacy, but I’m feeling like she’s told me she has an insatiability problem. I’m just “Good luck with that, baby,” and out the door.
Now Twix might tell you that she’s just delivered a devastating shot to my ego, but maybe my ego is so grotesquely huge that her death-blow has just glanced off, unnoticed and unregistered. No harm, no foul, in other words.
I honest to god don’t know how to be any clearer than that.
Okay, I lied, I do know how to be clearer than that.
The man couldn’t make love without a script. We’d take off our clothes and get in bed, and act X would occur for Y number of minutes, after which we’d proceed to act Z, which would occur for y+5 minutes, after which …
And my objection isn’t to act X, or act Y, or act Z, or my preference for one over another, or for his willingness or lack thereof to add things to or subtract things from the script – he was happy to rewrite the script per my expressed preferences, but he was incapable of improvising. And what I like in bed is improvising, and seeing what happens, without a script. And there are certain things I like, and I’m happy when my lover knows what they are – and there are certain things my lover likes, and I’m delighted to give him pleasure by participating in them – but I don’t want to know exactly what’s going to happen in advance. And the way this guy operated, there was never, ever a moment of surprise.
[QUOTE=twickster]
Okay, I lied, I do know how to be clearer than that.
The man couldn’t make love without a script. We’d take off our clothes and get in bed, and act X would occur for Y number of minutes, after which we’d proceed to act Z, which would occur for y+5 minutes, after which …
And my objection isn’t to act X, or act Y, or act Z, or my preference for one over another, or for his willingness or lack thereof to add things to or subtract things from the script – he was happy to rewrite the script per my expressed preferences, but he was incapable of improvising. And what I like in bed is improvising, and seeing what happens, without a script. And there are certain things I like, and I’m happy when my lover knows what they are – and there are certain things my lover likes, and I’m delighted to give him pleasure by participating in them – but I don’t want to know exactly what’s going to happen in advance. And the way this guy operated, there was never, ever a moment of surprise.
[/QUOTE]
OMG-I think we dated the same man. I won’t say more, but oh, my… :eek:
Why can’t this thread apply to women as well? I wouldn’t want to be told I’m a lousy lay, and I sure would like to know if I’m doing anything “wrong” or not to his liking when he is still interested enough to guide me etc. But as a cheap shot out the door-that’s not on.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
But as a cheap shot out the door-that’s not on.
[/QUOTE]
Cheap shots out the door are very uncool, eleanor, but I’m talking about a serious, detailed discussion with someone you recently had slept with and who is asking you for details.
If done correctly, there’s no meanness involved, and often no blame. “I wanted
X, couldn’t live without X, and you couldn’t supply X.”
“Okay–I’m not into X, don’t want to be into X, wish you luck with X, glad we could straighten this out. Have a nice X-seeking life.”
Sex is supposedly 90%fulfilled by the mind making the 10% physical effort pleasurable .
If this IS the case then couldn’t cause and effect have been muddled ?
On a subconscious level perhaps both you and he had recognised that you weren’t really "meshing "on any but a superficial level emotionally and the signals being sent from the brain down to tactile level and back up the nervous system were only going through the motions ,and weren’t going to make the Earth move for you even if he’d been practicing the Karma Sutra on his day off.
For his part the visual and physical cues from your body language he’d take on without realising it ,reinforcing his physical awkwardness as his brain told the hands and other bits and pieces their instructions.leading maybe to a no win situation on the orgasm front.
I haven’t expressed myself very well and could well be talking a"crock".
But my point is you didn.t fail him by failing to tell him that ,this ,that and the other moves just didn’t work, and in the process not giving him an opportunity to learn from experience, because he could have acted exactly the same way physically, with another woman wiho’s emotional tuning was diifferent and be forced to get her down from the ceiling with a broom handle…or not as the case may be.
Well its a theory anyway.
Lust4Life (apropos username, btw) – no, you’re basically saying the same thing I was, only in different words (and coming up with more of an explanation for it) – the point wasn’t the presence or absence of activity X, or the addition or deletion of other elements in the repertoire – it was the fact that my way of being with a lover (in a fairly profound sense of the word “being”) and his weren’t the same – and that whatever pleasure he might have experienced, however good the sex might have been for him, it wasn’t there for me.
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber]
Cheap shots out the door are very uncool, eleanor, but I’m talking about a serious, detailed discussion with someone you recently had slept with and who is asking you for details.
If done correctly, there’s no meanness involved, and often no blame. “I wanted
X, couldn’t live without X, and you couldn’t supply X.”
“Okay–I’m not into X, don’t want to be into X, wish you luck with X, glad we could straighten this out. Have a nice X-seeking life.”
[/QUOTE]
But IS it the sex? Or is that perhaps this partner (of either gender) is not really listening to the other partner’s needs? Isn’t the former just a manifestation of the latter? And what does one do when one is just not heard?
I’ll share a bit here: I love 2 things (well, that I’m willing to discuss on a bb): stroking my hair and foot massages. Essentially, one key to gettting me into “the mood” is a bit of either. My husband will do neither, after hints, then assertions, then confrontations, then discussions (not all at one time). Apparently he doesn’t think that this should matter to me–it does. In the grand scheme of things, it is a small bit, admittedly, but what are each of our lives, if not small bits of the grand scheme? It matters.
Now he “tries” but it’s like he wants a recipe or a script-3 minutes of foot massage/10 swipes of the back of my head and that should be enough…and it isn’t. Please don’t tell me to let him know-the man KNOWS. The man doesn’t care. There is no script; there is no recipe. Perhaps this fits more under a tangential topic of one partner wants X and the other wants Y. If so, sorry.
Now, if this was a date or BF (do women my age have BFs?), what to do? Is it a deal breaker? Dunno-should it be one? What would be said? Because stating your breaking up due to no hair stroking or foot massages seems a bit petty, no? I certainly won’t end a marriage over it-but it is there.
What does one do?
Sorry if this a hijack, but I find this topic both pertinent and fascinating.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
…snip…Now, if this was a date or BF (do women my age have BFs?), what to do? Is it a deal breaker? Dunno-should it be one? What would be said? Because stating your breaking up due to no hair stroking or foot massages seems a bit petty, no? I certainly won’t end a marriage over it-but it is there.
What does one do?
Sorry if this a hijack, but I find this topic both pertinent and fascinating.
[/QUOTE]
For me it is, because it’s not the lack of act X or Y that is the issue, it is the underlying unwillingness to engage in X or Y. And, imho, that spells lack of caring and consideration, and ultimately lack of “meshing”.
For me, and this is something that sadly I’ve only come to believe in the last 5 or so years (as in will put into action if it should come up again for me). And that is, that this sort of thing is a symptom of people having sex WAY too early on in their relationships.
Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE sex, but it can really cloud the issue and hide things that you should be using those early months to discover about each other. Such as possible lack of empathy or caring.
[QUOTE=twickster]
And my objection isn’t to act X, or act Y, or act Z, or my preference for one over another, or for his willingness or lack thereof to add things to or subtract things from the script – he was happy to rewrite the script per my expressed preferences, but he was incapable of improvising. And what I like in bed is improvising, and seeing what happens, without a script. And there are certain things I like, and I’m happy when my lover knows what they are – and there are certain things my lover likes, and I’m delighted to give him pleasure by participating in them – but I don’t want to know exactly what’s going to happen in advance. And the way this guy operated, there was never, ever a moment of surprise.
[/QUOTE]
I love the metaphor.
Sitcom or Improv - the age old fucking problem. I call for women the world over to dump George Costanza and hit on Larry David.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Why can’t this thread apply to women as well? I wouldn’t want to be told I’m a lousy lay, and I sure would like to know if I’m doing anything “wrong” or not to his liking when he is still interested enough to guide me etc. …
[/QUOTE]
I’ve been assuming men are more invested in their identities as great lovers than women are – such that “you’re lousy in bed” is more wounding to a man than to a woman.
That may be a sexist (or otherwise incorrect) assumption.
The problem with the OP is that context is everything. If the woman lays out (snicker) the reason that she is dumping the guy (presumably, not by saying, “you’re a lousy lay”) in a direct but sensitive manner, that’s okay. Thing is, though, many women don’t; if they could be direct and sensitive on their way out the door, they would have been direct and sensitive during the course of the relationship; in that case, the guy might have been able to learn what really turned her on. If she really tried to make it work, fine, but if she expected the guy to be a mind reader, that’s not cool.
Having said that, what should the woman do? Well, first off, let’s rewind. Did the woman really ascertain that the man was incapable of satisfying her? Before she dumped him, she should have given him a couple last tries…and actually made clear what she wanted. Nice at first, then bluntly, even if that is not her natural inclination. Hey, take a shot. At least then she’ll be sure.
Me? If she were nice about it, I’d rather know. In detail, if possible. Seriously. No one wants a mystery haunting them.
[QUOTE]
Originally Posted By Kalhoun
*There are some incompatibilities that can never be corrected. Sex can be one of those. I would never tell someone they were a dud, but it can definitely be a reason that the relationship comes to a screeching halt. I’d never share that with the dumpee.[/*QUOTE]
This is one of the reasons that I refuse to marry a man I have not slept with. I have spoken to people, both men and women, who feel like having sex before they get married is essentially a slap in the face of their future spouse so they refuse to even consider premarital sex. Do you think that those people who insist on being virgins when they get married run a significant risk of dealing with the kind of problem being discussed here or do you think that having nothing to compare it to helps prevent them from hoping for/knowing that it could be better?
Not test driving an auto is just stupid
[QUOTE=twickster]
Perhaps a better way of saying that was not that he was bad in bed, but that I didn’t want to have sex with him. My not wanting to have sex with him wasn’t about this act or another, or his willingness to do x, y, or z – it was about the fact that he was not tuned into sensation (his or mine) in the ways that lead to the kind of mutual responsiveness that I find pleasurable
[/quote]
Makes sense to me. I assume “bad sex” has been a factor in some of the times I’ve been dumped. It’s not like every female wants the same sexual experience. Any more than every male wants the same sexual experience.
Which is not the same as thinking I’ve been a dud in general. Maybe nowadays, my hormones seem to be on the decline or something, but I used to be rather good at this stuff in my own way.
[QUOTE=pbbth]
I’ve known a few of those - and their definition of sex has (IME) run toward’s Bill Clinton’s. My cousin was a virgin when she got married, but she and her financee had done enough fooling around that the only remaining question was fit. She had a pretty good idea about pacing and touch - which I think is pretty darn important - as did here.
Haven’t read the thread, but here’s my answer:
Tell me during the break up conversation. It would then be in my power to change that (for future GFs). You probably shouldn’t get into too much detail right there, as it might lead to “oh but I can improve that” replies, but do tell me. If you’re comfortable with the subject, offer to explain it in more detail after a while, but right now you need to do the breaking up.
You might be telling your SO he could improve in certain aspects of his performance during your whole relationship, but if you don’t tell him at this point, he won’t know he was bad. He might just “filter out” all those times you talked about it. Worse, he may be unsure, which won’t do him any good either.
Woman here. I can’t picture the bed thing being **the ** reason for breaking up with a guy. If **everything ** else was fine, and bed was just ordinary-bad (not dramatically bad, like he kept calling me “Mom” or needed me to dress like Batman or something) I don’t think that would be cause for a breakup, for me. OTOH, there are plenty of other things that could be wrong in the relationship that would carry over and spoil any connection in bed. Those would be the root cause and that’s what I’d focus on in any breakup talk.