My Best Friend's Husband Hates Me

[joyfool]

@artemis

That is something you should not have done. Bob addressed that email to you; he no doubt believed he was speaking to you privately and so was speaking very candidly. Would YOU like to have your private correspondence shared in that fashion?

For that matter, would this entire mess have happened in the first place if you hadn’t seen Bob’s comment about you in the private email he’d sent to your husband? If Bob had wanted you to know he found you annoying, he’d have told you himself. You saw a comment not intended for your eyes at all, got all upset over it, decided to press him about the issue, and as a result got a response that, while honest, was considerably more frank than you cared for. Basically, you set yourself up for this. Bob doesn’t sound like a particularly appealing person, to be sure, but I think you might want to reconsider this “share and share alike” approach you seem to have with your own and your husband’s emails. When you read things never intended for your eyes, it’s inevitable you’re eventually going to come across comments that hurt you.

The above, obviously, was about reading emails that weren’t intended for you. However, I think there may be a bit more to that then has been addressed.

1.) Bob may very well have specifically sent the email to El Hubbo so that he would pass along his feelings about her without him having to do it directly. A lot of passive-aggressive and socially inept people handle conflict this way, by letting someone else do it. That way, they have all sorts of outs if it backfires. (Examples provided if necessary.)

2.) Perhaps El Hubbo decided to show it to her because he may not of seen this behavior in her in that particular light, and once brought up, felt it was something that should be brought to her attention. And if truly accurate and applicable, would need to be corrected. So, if that’s the case, I can see where he’d be coming from.

Other than that, I think there’s been some good stuff on both sides of the fence. The description(s) of Bob and the reasoning behind his actions are something to take into account. However, I’d definitely say that he is completely clueless, tactless and overly rude. There’d have been a million better ways to accomplish his goal.

As far as Gazelle is concerned, I’d take any kernels worth keeping, apply them to making me a better person and then, if I wanted to, figure out where to go from there. If you really don’t like him and the situation is too stressful, let the friendship disintegrate. If you’d prefer to keep him around in that capacity, allow plenty of time to heal the wounds. But overall, I can’t imagine how one would honestly repair this without hostility and resentment on both sides. Do what’s healthiest for all parties involved and focus on what’s important to salvage.

Just MHO. And lotsa good luck. I would be beyond devastated to have received something like that. At the same time, I have an unbelievably annoying bestfriend who doesn’t even respond to flat-out telling her how I feel (although I’m definitely not comparing you to her – simply that it falls within the topic under discussion). I wonder if I’ll have to resort to being so crass to get her to stop some of her more aggressive attitudes. Nothing else seems to work.

Guess that’s a Pit rant thread I should start for another day.

[pepperlandgirl]

Ugh Gazelle, I apologize for consistently misspelling your name.

Artemis, we mostly agree on the things that really bothered me–namely that Bob was a big jerk and everybody, even Gazelle, could have handled the situation better.

[artemis]

@hopefool

As far as Gazelle is concerned, I’d take any kernels worth keeping, apply them to making me a better person and then, if I wanted to, figure out where to go from there. If you really don’t like him and the situation is too stressful, let the friendship disintegrate. If you’d prefer to keep him around in that capacity, allow plenty of time to heal the wounds. But overall, I can’t imagine how one would honestly repair this without hostility and resentment on both sides. Do what’s healthiest for all parties involved and focus on what’s important to salvage.

This definitely sounds like good advice. Gazelle is certainly under no obligations to attempt to mend fences with this rude man. One other thing worth remembering is that husbands and wives aren’t grafted together at the hip; it is still possible to be friends with a person even if you hate his/her spouse. Maybe Gazelle should just continue her friendship with Heidi and leave Bob to do his own thing. No reason the two of them can’t still get together to do “girl things” if they still like each other’s company.

[Jaade]

I have to disagree with the posters that think that she is violating Bob’s privacy by showing the email to El Hubbo. I automatically assume when I tell one of my married friends something, their spouse will know. A marriage is a partnership, and spouses should be best friends. People confide in their best friends. I would never tell a married friend something and ask them to keep that a secret from their spouse. I think this email falls under that rule, too.

~J

[Miller]

@Jaade

I have to disagree with the posters that think that she is violating Bob’s privacy by showing the email to El Hubbo. I automatically assume when I tell one of my married friends something, their spouse will know. A marriage is a partnership, and spouses should be best friends. People confide in their best friends. I would never tell a married friend something and ask them to keep that a secret from their spouse. I think this email falls under that rule, too.

~J

Not everyone makes that assumption, especially if the relationship is primarily with one member of the couple. Especially if somone makes a specific request that the conversation remain private. Marriage is a partnership, not a hive-mind, and I’d expect something told in explicit confidence to one partner in a marriage to remain secret from the other partner. If I couldn’t be sure of that, I would not take the married person into my confidence.

Mind you, if I’d received such a letter, I would definetly share it with my girlfriend (if I had a girlfriend), but that would be out of deliberate spite, with the expectation that sharing the e-mail would piss off the person who sent it. I’m petty like that.

[yosemite]

A few thoughts: Bob was very nasty in how he phrased his email. He didn’t need to do that. I personally have no sympathy or respect for the passive-aggressive tactic of bottling it all up for months or years and then blowing up like he did. He needed to handle it very differently. And if Gazelle’s behavior was irritating him, he probably had many opportunities to tell her earlier and he didn’t. So he waits until he’s at a boiling point and that’s all her fault because he waited so long to spill his guts? No, it’s not. He could have addressed her months (or years) earlier when he was far less irritated.

Regarding sharing the email: I think there’s a difference between forwarding an email to all the buddies in your address book, and sharing it with a spouse or parent, for instance. So, no, I don’t think that Gazelle was under any obligation to conceal Bob’s assholishness from her husband. That would almost be like keeping a secret from her husband, and I don’t think that’s something she should have to do, especially since Bob’s email was not of a personal, confidential nature (he was not disclosing personal medical information to her and making her promise not to tell anyone else). I don’t think it would be appropriate for her to forward that email to everyone she knew, but her own husband? I think she should be able to share with her husband something like that. And frankly, I don’t think that anyone should feel safe to assume that a person is not going to share an email like that with their spouse.

And in preview, what Jaade said.

[Rubystreak]

I have to ask, Gazelle:

1. Do you invite people over for a specific activity, and then have the guest list get so out of hand that the original activity is lost? Without thinking about how your original guests will feel when the arrive and discover the change of activity?

2. Do you have lengthy conversations about things like bikini waxes, your birth control methods, and crusty vaginas in mixed company? Do you tell the same old in-jokes over and over, even if some people aren’t laughing?

3. Do you invite people over who don’t know each other, then go to bed early, leaving a bunch of strangers staring at each other?

4. Do you get a bit too intoxicated at these events sometimes and get out of hand or pass out?

5. Do you see your neighbors having guests and go over there without a call inviting you?

All of these things, esp. in the spouse of a close friend, would drive me up the wall. I would not want to confront this person because I would not want to destroy the friendship I valued, but I think I would, if pressed, eventually spill the whole thing. I’d probably try to be nicer, but it would undoubtedly get ugly; Bob likely is beyond caring at this point.

I am not defending Bob’s communication style, but I imagine he has dropped hints to you that he was annoyed with the above things, which are, empirically, annoying. He is probably not the best social interactor, so his attempts to communicate his irritation flew under your radar, as I sense you haven’t been too tuned into his feelings, despite your protestations to the contrary. He obviously values your husband as a friend and tried, in his behind-the-scenes way, to create situations where he can see your husband without you there. It wasn’t right for him to tell you how to run your RISK game, I agree with you on that, but it was probably the straw that broke the camel’s back. Also, you did ask.

I think it’s perfectly OK for Bob to want to see El Hubbo without seeing you but… Ask yourself-- if Bob invited El Hubbo over without inviting you, would you go with him anyway, assuming that you were invited too? Do you see Bob’s dilemma?

I think you and Bob just are not compatible. I don’t think Bob is crazy, nor do I think his complaints are invalid. I just think he’s socially inept and a poor communicator who waited too long to air his grievances for fear of alienating his friend. It’s too bad, but these things happen.

[Gazelle]

@Rubystreak

I have to ask, Gazelle:

1. Do you invite people over for a specific activity, and then have the guest list get so out of hand that the original activity is lost? Without thinking about how your original guests will feel when the arrive and discover the change of activity?

No. I have invited new people who I thought would be compatible with the other guests and/or activities we had planned and it hasn’t worked out. Out of the 50 times we’ve had people over, this has happened a maximum of four times.

2. Do you have lengthy conversations about things like bikini waxes, your birth control methods, and crusty vaginas in mixed company?

Bikini waxes and birth control methods, yes. We’re all in our thirties. We’re allowed. The crusty vagina thing is something a male friend came up with… It’s a goofy song he sings.

Do you tell the same old in-jokes over and over, even if some people aren’t laughing?

Yes. Because the only person who doesn’t laugh is Bob. He’s not a “laugh-out-loud” kind of guy.

I’d think you would notice that his tolerance for this kind of stuff is much lower than most people’s. He’s a very smart guy who remembers everything… Some of the stuff he’s describing happened over three years ago.

3. Do you invite people over who don’t know each other, then go to bed early, leaving a bunch of strangers staring at each other?

This happened one time and everyone else stayed for three more hours (from midnight to 3 AM) talking. If Bob felt so uncomfortable, why did he stay?

4. Do you get a bit too intoxicated at these events sometimes and get out of hand or pass out?

I don’t get out of hand. I have fallen asleep with the aid of alcohol. I get up at 4:30 am. When I have two glasses of wine on a Friday and the magic hour of 10:00 pm shows up, I have been known to fall asleep no matter where I am. This is the first time anyone has expressed disdain.

5. Do you see your neighbors having guests and go over there without a call inviting you?

No. I have called, talked to Heidi, and asked if I could stop by to say hello. I thought I was being polite. This is a serious sore point that I’ve asked Heidi for clarification upon. Now that I know how much Bob hated it, I guess it was a serious imposition. If I knew that my husband absolutely detested when a friend stopped by, I wouldn’t feel very comfortable, either.

All of these things, esp. in the spouse of a close friend, would drive me up the wall.

Yep, me too.

As I’ve said, I cannot deny that any of the things he’s described happened. But he is looking at these things through the eyes of someone who does not give two shits about me. A friend does not store up lists of things that annoy them about someone and then SPEW them out in a hateful tirade.

This is a man who we invited over for dinner when his wife was out of town. In September, he came over to break in our new keg fridge. The three of us stayed up 'til 1:00 AM playing a game he called KSKI (the last three letters of our name are “ski”) - we’d play a track from a CD and tell him what we remembered about it. This is the guy who would come over to our house, unannounced, and we’d watch DVDs 'til 3:00 AM. I’d sit on the ottoman because he’s a guest and deserves a chair.

It’s like he’s forgotten all that. And it really hurts.

[TwistofFate]

Who set up the game of Risk?

Did your husband invite Bob over?

[Rubystreak]

@Gazelle

It’s like he’s forgotten all that. And it really hurts.

Even though obviously I can totally see Bob’s POV, I also know how you feel. When someone you liked who thought liked you all of a sudden reveals this deep-seated hatred for you that you didn’t know existed, it hurts. A lot. Also, it’s embarrassing to think you could have been going along, blithely being yourself, while this other person seethed and thought evil thinks about you, never telling you.

Essentially, what I’m saying is, I do sympathize with your hurt feelings, despite being the devil’s advocate in my previous post.

[MaddyStrut]

Some of the things Bob mentioned would annoy me. However, I think Bob is getting way too upset about what are, to me at least, pretty manageable things. None of my friends is perfect. I’m not perfect. We all do little things that annoy each other on occassion. Somehow, we manage to stay friends.

Okay, inviting yourself over when they have guests (and it sounds like you did–even if that wasn’t your intention) is annoying. I have a friend that does this. But it’s easily handled with a polite “we’d like to spend the evening catching up with each other and would prefer not to have other company around.” Or, if it continues, “Gazelle, I wish you wouldn’t invite yourself over when we have guests. We plan our invites in advance and know who we want over on a particular evening. I hope you can respect that.”

As to the group expanding from 6 to 8, I can understand that the initial idea was to play Risk and that’s not possible with 8, but you made it clear you still intended to play the game. Even if you hadn’t, all Bob had to say was “you know, I was really looking forward to playing Risk and just don’t feel up to a larger get together at this time.” Then let it go. You have every right to invite whomever you choose. Bob may be dissappointed, but he shouldn’t be upset.

The other things he mentioned just seem like general irritation with your personality. That’s his problem. For crying out loud, we all do things that irritate each other. I have friends who laugh way too loudly at their own jokes. Friends who can monopolize a conversation with their own peculiar interests while others eyes are glazing over. But they’re good people who have been there for me and others when we’ve really needed someone. Their hearts are in the right place–even if their mouths sometimes aren’t! I’m sure I do things that irritate my friends. None of us are perfect.

Bob sounds like he can’t handle even minor annoyances with his friends. That’s too bad for him because he’s not going to find too many perfect people out there willing to be friends with him.

For the record, when I send an email or have a conversation with a married friend, I assume the spouse will see it. I know not everyone shares everything with his or her spouse, but so many people do that I’ve begun operating under that assumption.

[The_Mad_Hermit]

Gazelle, I have to agree that Bob is in the wrong about the way he handled this. Are you prepared to cut your friendship with Heidi, if this becomes necessary? I hope it doesn’t.

Have you thought about another option- that Bob doesn’t like it when the girls play games with the guys? I had a guy in my old game group who acted exactly like this- he wanted every game to be “guys night,” including vulgar talk, jokes and drinking. He also had a problem with wome who could play better than him- so he would weasel every rule until everyone got tired of arguing and quit, and he’d consider it a flawless victory!

I know it sucks when friends get like this. Maybe Heidi will knock some sense into him, figuratively.

[BubbaDog]

Simple rule: Never let a loser push your buttons.

Bob pushes buttons…pulls knobs…turns dials…yanks the power cord…

He may be too skilled at those things for you to put him in his place. Excluding him would be the easiest and possibly best solution.

[Ferret_Herder]

@Rubystreak

Even though obviously I can totally see Bob’s POV, I also know how you feel. When someone you liked who thought liked you all of a sudden reveals this deep-seated hatred for you that you didn’t know existed, it hurts. A lot. Also, it’s embarrassing to think you could have been going along, blithely being yourself, while this other person seethed and thought evil thinks about you, never telling you.

I’d sympathize more, except this confuses me:

@Gazelle

Punoqllads, the sad thing is… the people he extolls as his “friends” really think he’s an asshole too. Basically, everyone we know is like, “Why is Heidi with this fucking guy?”

Yet in her OP, she expresses shock over his reaction as supposedly “they” have been best friends for many years. Her reply to his letter stated:

@Gazelle

For the past several years, I’ve thought of you guys as our best friends.

Now everyone’s thought he’s an asshole for quite some time? Yeah, he sure came off harsh, but the contrast between the two viewpoints puzzles me.

Another note - Bob says his wife made the “let’s go do girl stuff” overture because it was supposed to be a “guys gaming” night. When I read her offer to go to a spa or whatever it was, that’s exactly what it sounded like to me, so either Gazelle’s best friend Heidi also thought that it was supposed to be a guy night, or that she knew that Bob didn’t like dealing with Gazelle and wasn’t going to say anything about it but just tried to prevent a confrontation.

To recap, everyone but Heidi hates Bob, but doesn’t say anything about it, Heidi probablyknew that Bob hated Gazelle but didn’t say anything about it, and Bob finally blew a gasket, making Gazelle mad that someone she’s previously thought of as an asshole, a best friend, or both, is mad at her. Am I on target with any of this?

Disclaimer: Yes, I think Bob was harsh. However, I don’t know any of you, so I don’t really know what led up to it, so I can’t tell if that was or wasn’t unwarranted, though I’m leaning towards the former.

[cowgirl]

It sounds like you still value his friendship (or at least you value his wife’s, and couples are usually a 2-for-1 deal) so although this doesn’t seem to be your doing, it seems a little damage control is in order.

I have a number of friends whose partners I don’t really get along with. The very worst outcome is that the friend (ie Heidi) is forced to choose between me and their partner, so I do whatever is necessary to make sure the friend isn’t in that position. Of course, if you can dump him without any problems vis. Heidi, then you’re laughing.

As others have said, apologize for annoying him and say you’ll try to keep an eye on it. And maybe it would be a good idea to reflect on some of your behaviour. Be honest with yourself, tho - if you think that something you’re doing is okay, and he doesn’t, or vice versa, you’re the ultimate judge. Don’t change your personality just to suit him.

[Lady_of_the_Lake]

Gazelle,
hug Just remember that you are an okay person. And while he may not like certain parts of your personality, other people do. hug

An email as you’ve received would have me doubting my own self worth big time.

In one way, his email can be helpful. You can work on issues that you feel uncomfortable with that he’s brought up. It may take time, but it’s always good to self reflect.

I believe his issue does stem from his introverted tendencies, as others have pointed out. Being an introvert is not bad (I’m one), but letting certain introverted tendencies control aspects of ones life is not a good path to follow. Control leads one to feel safe and assured, but by doing so you are cutting out so many new life experiences…and more importantly people that you lead yourself to be further and further isolated. He seems to like to have ‘controlled’ friendships (but I could be wrong). Set tasks, set people, set conversations, all safe, all perfect for the way he likes to play… But what if his friends have a different style? Does he accept that there are many ways to have a good time, roll with the punches and broaden his social circle? Or does he fester and then say some very inappropriate things? shrug

For the pain that he’s inflicted on you, my vindictive side suggests you invite all of his friends (that are really your friends as well…they should be able to determine who they are friends with, after all) for long nights of talking about vaginas, drinking too much wine and laughing up a storm! But that’s just my vindictive side…

[overlyverbose]

Gazelle, that sucks! Still, Bob was honest when you confronted him, and even if he was cruel, you know where you both stand and can act accordingly. What would piss me off most of all, were I in your situation, is that he said negative things about me to my husband of all people. I think that’s kind of low for a couple of reasons: 1) he should have told you, not your husband; and 2) what did he expect to gain by telling stuff like that to your husband? Usually when you tell things like that to someone, it’s because you know they would back you up because they may agree with the negative comments or because they’re very close to you and that’s what friends do. But when you’re talking about someone else’s significant other, that’s moving into more shaky territory. If someone came to me about character flaws in my fiance, they shouldn’t expect me to say “Yeah, I know. That’s so annoying. Who does he think he is, anyway?” or “Oh, I’m sorry you think he’s a stupid git. I’ll tell him that he needs to change his ways to please you.” I’m very loyal to my friends, but I’m also loyal to my fiance and my family and that creates a significant conflict of interest.

Also, I found it sort of weird that he expected you to get all the hints that Heidi was throwing at you. While some of her hints were kind of blatant (i.e., why don’t we just have a spa day so that the boys can hang out?), I don’t think you can be expected to get every hint that someone gives you.

In the end, remember that not everyone has to like you. I know you’re probably still hurt, but if he doesn’t like you, just avoid the guy. Be civil if you see him, but there’s no need to waste a lot of time trying to make someone like you who probably won’t change their opinion. I mean, he asked you to change the way you act in front of him and your friends. It seems to me that, even if you do change, he’ll still be waiting for you to fail to meet his specifications. That’s just dumb. I wouldn’t want to hang out with someone who was watching me for slip-ups.

[Gazelle]

@Steelerphan

Gazelle, I have to agree that Bob is in the wrong about the way he handled this. Are you prepared to cut your friendship with Heidi, if this becomes necessary? I hope it doesn’t.

I really don’t want to, but yes, I’m prepared.

Have you thought about another option- that Bob doesn’t like it when the girls play games with the guys? I had a guy in my old game group who acted exactly like this- he wanted every game to be “guys night,” including vulgar talk, jokes and drinking.

Could be, but I doubt it. Even with chicks, we still get vulgar, tell jokes and drink. All of that will happen on Saturday.

I know it sucks when friends get like this. Maybe Heidi will knock some sense into him, figuratively.

I keep waiting for her to smack him around, but he must not treat her in anywhere near the same fashion.

[Gazelle]

@BubbaDog

Simple rule: Never let a loser push your buttons.

Bob pushes buttons…pulls knobs…turns dials…yanks the power cord…

He may be too skilled at those things for you to put him in his place. Excluding him would be the easiest and possibly best solution.

BubbaDoggie, I know you’re right. I’m trying to remember that.

[lno]

This guy doesn’t happen to be a unix adminstrator, does he? I mean, the rules-lawyering, tabletop gaming (Advanced Squad Leader of all things!), lack of social graces, passive-aggressive tendencies … the fact that he’s married is a problem for my hypothesis, but I’m not one to let facts get in the way of my prejudices.

[sub]I kid, I kid. But I think I knew the guy . . .[/sub]