[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
Oh, fuck you.
She hasn’t been raped and she hasn’t been killed.
There is no evidence whatsoever of that happening, so dial back your hysteria a bit, please.
[/QUOTE]
Oh really? Guess you missed “possibly” and “probably”. Well, since you KNOW so much, what happened? And where’s her body? Or do you believe she is not even dead. Probably had such a good time druggin’ it up and whoring around she blew her way onto a boat heading for Shanghai. Right? :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=PunditLisa]
Bottom line is that Natalee Holloway’s family deserves justice for her daughter’s death.
You can fault the *media * for focusing on just one type of victim at the expense of another. Fair enough. But faulting the parents is ridiculous. They are in more pain than I could ever imagine. The fact of the matter is that none of us KNOWS how we’d react if we were thrown into similar circumstances.
But I will tell you this: If your child goes missing, you’d have my unconditional sympathy, whether your child was blonde or black haired, a saint or a slut, a drug addict or a choir boy. Even if you appeared on every talk show imaginable, including the despicable Nancy Grace, every stinking night of the week, you’d still have my sympathy.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly. You wouldn’t think people would want to hold a different position than this, but evidently they do. Well stated.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Oh really? Guess you missed “possibly” and “probably”. Well, since you KNOW so much, what happened? And where’s her body? Or do you believe she is not even dead. Probably had such a good time druggin’ it up and whoring around she blew her way onto a boat heading for Shanghai. Right? :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
Actually it is people like you who pretend to know facts that aren’t there.
I am sure the kid is dead and not drugging and whoring around.
I also don’t think she is sold to an international prostitution ring.
I have no reason to suspect that Joran wasn’t telling the truth.
I have sympathy for her and her family, just not for people blowing things out of proportion and talking about abduction, rape and killing when none of these things appeared to have been the case.
This was an accidental death as far as I am concerned.
The only thing they can accuse Joran of is being a heartless, stupid son-of-a-bitch which isn’t a crime.
[QUOTE=acsenray]
… deserves justice for their daughter’s accidental but voluntary drug overdose
… deserves justice for the coverup of the circumstances of their daughter’s accidental but voluntary drug overdose
What is justice in this case?
[/QUOTE]
First of all, we don’t know the circumstances of her death because the people who were with her when she died disposed of the body, circumventing an autopsy. That much is indisputed. For all we know, he could have given her a date rape drug, raped her and dumped her body. You assume it was much less sinister. But we’ll never know, because the body is gone. And that, in and of itself, is a crime.
If you honestly can’t figure out what justice would be for the parents, let me help you out: Justice would be for the parents to get some answers as to what happened to their daughter. It would be for the people who callously dumped her body to go to trial for a minimum charge of abuse of a corpse and obstruction of justice. If Dutch law allows it, I’d also throw in a civil lawsuit for intentional infliction of emotional distress.
The horror here is not Holloway’s death. Death happens. It’s her disappearance.
I wouldn’t dispose of a dog’s corpse were I to accidentally hit it, because I couldn’t bear the thought of someone looking for their dog day after day. I most certainly wouldn’t dispose of someone’s CHILD. It doesn’t matter if I was at fault, you don’t assign people to the hell of not knowing if you can avoid it. It’s heartless.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Exactly. You wouldn’t think people would want to hold a different position than this, but evidently they do. Well stated.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, please get of your high horse.
Her parents are simply not going to get justice.
How the hell are you going to get justice for your kid accidentally overdosing?
I wish Joran wouldn’t have been such an idiot and just called the cops so we wouldn’t have all this hysteria.
Let me put it out there once more : there is no way on earth her parents are ever going to get justice.
Unless the very unlikely scenario happens that her body is found and there is evidence of foul-play, which you have to agree isn’t very likely.
[QUOTE=PunditLisa]
Perhaps you should take your own advice and write a therapeutic book to help explore why you’re such a negative, angry person.
[/QUOTE]
I’ll wait till my kid dies, thanks. What about my quoted post do you disagree with?
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
I’ll wait till my kid dies, thanks.
[/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t wish that even on you.
[QUOTE=PunditLisa]
First of all, we don’t know the circumstances of her death because the people who were with her when she died disposed of the body, circumventing an autopsy. That much is indisputed. For all we know, he could have given her a date rape drug, raped her and dumped her body. You assume it was much less sinister. But we’ll never know, because the body is gone. And that, in and of itself, is a crime.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, or maybe she has been abducted by aliens. :rolleyes:
Why the hell would he have used a daterape drug when the girls was promiscuous and drunk as a skunk?
She voluntarily left with him as well.
[QUOTE=PunditLisa]
If you honestly can’t figure out what justice would be for the parents, let me help you out: Justice would be for the parents to get some answers as to what happened to their daughter. It would be for the people who callously dumped her body to go to trial for a minimum charge of abuse of a corpse and obstruction of justice. If Dutch law allows it, I’d also throw in a civil lawsuit for intentional infliction of emotional distress.
[/QUOTE]
I think the closest thing to an answer to this will be what they got now : an unofficial declaration by Joran on what happened.
Of course he is never going to do that again and it has no validity as evidence whatsoever.
And I have never heard of the charge of abuse of a corpse.
If they ever get an official confession from Joran the best thing they can do is sue him for obstruction of justice.
The sentence for that will probably be less then the time he already spent in jail, if legislation is anything like the one in the Netherlands.
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
Actually it is people like you who pretend to know facts that aren’t there.
Okay, genius, what specifically did I get wrong?
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
I am sure the kid is dead and not drugging and whoring around.
I also don’t think she is sold to an international prostitution ring.
[/QUOTE]
Bbbbbut, how do you know that? What PROOF do you have?
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
I have no reason to suspect that Joran wasn’t telling the truth.
[/QUOTE]
This is rich. And just what version of what he has said do you believe?
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
I have sympathy for her and her family, just not for people blowing things out of proportion and talking about abduction, rape and killing when none of these things appeared to have been the case.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, wait a minute. You jump my shit claiming things DID NOT happen even though I used “possible” and “probably”, but now backpedal to say well, that none of things “appeared” to have been the case. Glad your not one of those people that might blow things out of proportion. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
This was an accidental death as far as I am concerned.
[/QUOTE]
I think that is likely, with some drugs given to her by the scumbag you seem intent on defending.
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
The only thing they can accuse Joran of is being a heartless, stupid son-of-a-bitch which isn’t a crime.
[/QUOTE]
Disposing of a body is. Lying to the police is. And that’s at the very least.
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
Oh, please get of your high horse.
[/QUOTE]
I’d ventured to guess that from your perspective all horses look high. Even saddled mice.
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
Her parents are simply not going to get justice.
[/QUOTE]
That may, sadly, very well be true.
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
How the hell are you going to get justice for your kid accidentally overdosing?
[/QUOTE]
Assuming that’s what happened.
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
I wish Joran wouldn’t have been such an idiot and just called the cops so we wouldn’t have all this hysteria.
[/QUOTE]
How dare that girl die and her parents seek answers and justice and annoy you?!!! The nerve of them.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Okay, genius, what specifically did I get wrong?
[/QUOTE]
Well, Einstein, the things you make up maybe?
Like the rape that took place, wait no, maybe took place?
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Bbbbbut, how do you know that? What PROOF do you have?
[/QUOTE]
There is no proof. Therefore there will never be a conviction.
The only thing resembling proof is the confession Joran made, who was the last person to see her alive.
I think he probably knows more about it then I do or guess who… you, Einstein.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
This is rich. And just what version of what he has said do you believe?
[/QUOTE]
The one he made in an unofficial capacity to a person he trusted.
Of course he wasn’t telling the truth to the cops as that would get him thrown in jail.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Oh, wait a minute. You jump my shit claiming things DID NOT happen even though I used “possible” and “probably”, but now backpedal to say well, that none of things “appeared” to have been the case. Glad your not one of those people that might blow things out of proportion. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
Hey, if evidence ever shows up that any of the things you made up are true I will be the first to say I was wrong.
But guess what… there is no proof and the only detailed account of the last hours of the kid are what has been told by Joran.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
I think that is likely, with some drugs given to her by the scumbag you seem intent on defending.
[/QUOTE]
I am not defending Joran at all, I am just jumping down your throat for being one of those people attempting to make things worse then they already are.
Her parents are never going to find peace if people keep stirring up shit like “Maybe she was raped and strangled and cut up and died a horrible, horrible death”.
And why the hell would he have given her drugs?
You know drugs cost money, right?
Why give drugs to a girl that is dead-drunk and is showing clear signs she is going to show you a good time?
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Disposing of a body is. Lying to the police is. And that’s at the very least.
[/QUOTE]
It might be in the US, but this didn’t happen in the US, did it?
As far as I know disposing of a body isn’t a crime in itself, but I might very well be wrong in that respect.
But then they would first have to find a little things called evidence.
You might have heard of it somewhere. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=magellan01]
I’d ventured to guess that from your perspective all horses look high. Even saddled mice.
[/QUOTE]
I have to give you props for that one.
Very funny. 
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Assuming that’s what happened.
[/QUOTE]
Well, there is a reason to assume that.
Maybe Jorans confession?
[QUOTE=magellan01]
How dare that girl die and her parents seek answers and justice and annoy you?!!! The nerve of them.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, FUCK YOU !!
That is just uncalled for.
How the fuck do you go from this sentence “I wish Joran wouldn’t have been such an idiot and just called the cops so we wouldn’t have all this hysteria.” to blaming the girl or her parents?
I am actually blaming you, yes you, you mouthbreathing simpleton.
People like you who keep worsening the situation with some sick, twisted need for every sordid detail to be as bad as possible.
You think you are helping her parents deal with this by adding your sick, twisted rape fantasies?
I don’t get where the “date rape drug” and rape come in. Is it just that these have been repeated so many times that no one bothers to ask why they were brought up in the first place? What evidence is there that she was given any drug? What evidence is there that she was raped? Is it just because this guy is BAD, and BAD people do BAD things, and rape and poisoning are BAD things?
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
Yeah, or maybe she has been abducted by aliens. :rolleyes: Why the hell would he have used a daterape drug when the girls was promiscuous and drunk as a skunk? She voluntarily left with him as well.
[/quote]
Aliens don’t exist. Assholes do.
Why would have have moved her body if he had no hand in her death? Is that what a reasonable person would do? No. A reasonable person would have run to the nearest phone booth and called for help. Then if she was truly dead of an accidental overdose, there would have been no finger pointing and speculation as to what really happened.
Abuse of a corpse is a pretty standard crime. It probably originated with grave robbers but can be applied to situations such as these where it is obvious that someone tampered with a body.
Of course, the statute of limitations on both of these may have already expired. I assume Dutch law has statute of limitations.
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
Well, Einstein, the things you make up maybe?
Like the rape that took place, wait no, maybe took place?
[/QUOTE]
Hmmm, I’m not sure I know what the problem is here. I’m not sure if it’s that you’re a blathering idiot or a dishonest scumbag. Of course there is the distinct possibility that it’s not an either/or proposition. But let me explain this to you using small words. If I would have stated that a rape took place, you might have had a point. But I didn’t state it happened. I stated that it “possibly” could have happened. Then when it came to her being killed, I qualified it less, but still qualified it, with “probably”. So, Idiot, words matter. And if you were either a little smarter or a little more honest, you would have seen that the construction of the sentence displayed a hierarchy of certainty: from something that “possibly” happened to something that “probably” happened to something that “definitely” happened. I hope that helps. Though I have little reason to be optimistic.
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
Hey, if evidence ever shows up that any of the things you made up are true I will be the first to say I was wrong.
[/QUOTE]
Well, why don’t you start now and admit that you’re putting words in my mouth saying I made up facts? Again, I am not optimistic.
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
I am not defending Joran at all, I am just jumping down your throat for being one of those people attempting to make things worse then they already are.
[/QUOTE]
Worse for whom? I’m more concerned with the Holloways in this regard than you and your ilk.
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
As far as I know disposing of a body isn’t a crime in itself, but I might very well be wrong in that respect.
[/QUOTE]
Evidently you are. I heard on TV the other night it Aruba it is worth two years time.
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
But then they would first have to find a little things called evidence.
You might have heard of it somewhere. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
I know what evidence is. It’s the thing you need to point to to back-up an assertion of fact. That’s why I used words like “possibly” and “probably”. And why I wouldn’t use them when claiming that you are an idiot. Instead, I can just point to the evidence: the thinking you’ve demonstrated in this thread.
[QUOTE=Scoundrel Swanswater]
You think you are helping her parents deal with this by adding your sick, twisted rape fantasies?
[/QUOTE]
I actually have no rape fantasies. Wait—I’m picturing you, a little tipsy, on an Aruban beach with a tall local…
[QUOTE=saoirse]
I don’t get where the “date rape drug” and rape come in. Is it just that these have been repeated so many times that no one bothers to ask why they were brought up in the first place? What evidence is there that she was given any drug? What evidence is there that she was raped? Is it just because this guy is BAD, and BAD people do BAD things, and rape and poisoning are BAD things?
[/QUOTE]
Now, think to yourself, why would a person go to the trouble of dumping a girl’s body into the ocean? The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that you’ve done something wrong and you needed to dispose of the evidence.
If he truly didn’t do anything wrong, then he could have easily just left her body on a beach, knowing that the subsequent autopsy would have proven that he wasn’t at fault in her death.
[QUOTE=PunditLisa]
Now, think to yourself, why would a person go to the trouble of dumping a girl’s body into the ocean? The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that you’ve done something wrong and you needed to dispose of the evidence.
If he truly didn’t do anything wrong, then he could have easily just left her body on a beach, knowing that the subsequent autopsy would have proven that he wasn’t at fault in her death.
[/QUOTE]
I can’t think of any reason, but that doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist. Also, how did we get from “did something wrong” to “Poisoned her with a date rape drug, then raped her?” Why not just “lured her out to the beach, and raped her while he strangled her?” Why not add, “Purchased a puppy for her earlier that day, and stangled the puppy while raping it in front of her?” And after all, if he didn’t, then where the hell is the puppy, huh?
Why would you need a date rape drug for a girl already drunk and drug addled, who heads to the beach with a hot guy she just met- do her parents really think her intent was to go fishing?
[QUOTE=PunditLisa]
Aliens don’t exist. Assholes do.
Why would have have moved her body if he had no hand in her death? Is that what a reasonable person would do? No. A reasonable person would have run to the nearest phone booth and called for help. Then if she was truly dead of an accidental overdose, there would have been no finger pointing and speculation as to what really happened.
[/QUOTE]
I am suspecting because he is an entitled little asshole who just didn’t want to go through an investigation if he could get away with it.
Remember that is father is a lawyers who was studying to become a judge.
Any reasonable person would have called the police but the evidence is strong that Joran is simply not a reasonable person.