Have to agree w/Esprix on this one…it’s lame, though not half as annoying as the guy who kept coming up to a bunch of us in the park and saying “Well, I’m a lesbian, right? I mean, I like girls!” (he’d walk away and repeat this every few minutes—AAARRGGGH!)
I find the “lesbian in a man’s body” crack exceedingly offensive. My usual comeback is “So, when are you having your cock removed?” If that doesn’t stop them, I go into a graphic description of the process of penile inversion (“After the administration of anethesia, we first open the scrotum with a pair of vertical incisions, exposing the testicles, which are then removed…”), which usually chases off all but the most determined of them. It is my experience that this sort of annoyance is not the sort to have castration or nullification fantasies.
As andygirl notes, the crack is rather demeaning of transgendered lesbians, although from what I’ve been able to gather most of us don’t consider ourselves “lesbians in a man’s body” anyway. (I certainly don’t.) This lame joke makes light of what is, for me at least, a rather serious personal issue, and by no means a good way to get off to a good note with me.
I don’t know why guys make that particular joke; do they think it might work to get them laid? Or are they just making fun of us? I don’t get it.
To go a little further on that note… Not only do I find it a bit demeaning, but the fact that it’s such a common joke makes it very hard to get people to take me seriously. No, thank you, I am not trying to make a joke when I say that I identify as male. And just as a side rant… No, the fact that I am not having surgery any time soon does not mean I’m not serious either. Transgendered does not always equal transsexual.
-
What do you identify as?
bi-sexual, polyamorous -
How short is your hair?
Almost long enough to sit on. -
Is it a natural color?
Yes, never been dyed. -
If you play sports, what are they?
Do the Sims count? -
Do people look at you and think you are terribly terribly gay?
Not that they mention. -
Do you shave your legs?
Just before I go swimming and everyonce in a while I let my husband shave them for kicks. -
Your head? Your armpits?
My head, no. My armpits occasionally. -
What about the queer female community annoys you?
The womyn born womyn fascists, the idiots that don’t believe in bisexuals. -
What is your idea of dressing up?
My bright blue ankle length dress an bright yellow scarf, or my long green velvet dress. -
Do you wear makeup?
No. I used to but stopped because I wanted to. -
What are “stereotypically lesbian” things that you do/wear/eat? (Expansive question, I know, but work with me. ;))
Make love to a woman? Sleep with a woman every night, but then I sleep with a man everynight too. -
What queer/ friendly female recording artists do you listen to?
-
Any thoughts on the butch-femme thing?
-
Were you a repressed Catholic schoolgirl? no, but my 14 year old gf was.
-
What do you feel are three very important queer woman issues? Equal rights for women, especially equal pay for the same damn jobs. Violence against women. Insurance coverage for gender dysphoria.
-
How good is your gaydar? non-existance.
-
How “incestuous” is your dating scene? I don’t date. I am in committed relationships.
-
Describe your dating patterns. (U-Haul, serial monogamy, whatever.)I am married. I live with my lesbian lover. It is a big bed.
-
Did you/do you date men? How’s that working for you? I had a young lover for a while but now he is in a committed relationship with someone else. I am happy for him.
-
Any thoughts on good and bad representations of queer woman in popular culture?
Is Ellen all we get? Ick. Coming out did not make her funny. -
Tell me a coming out story. Doesn’t have to be yours. Funny, tragic, whatever.
I good friend of mine came out in a college paper before telling us. Not nice, but we forgave him.
1.) I identify as bi. I’m married (to a man 
) but we have a polyamorous-type relationship. I hate that word, but I can’t think of another one. We only “swing” together, and usually with women. He’s straight, and occasionally we play with another guy, but almost always when the guy is half of a couple.
2.) My hair is just past shoulder-length.
3.) Yep, natural.
4.) We go bowling sometimes - does that count?
5.) I guess sometimes I “look gay”. It depends on the day and what I’m wearing.
6.) You betcha.
7.) My hubby’s head is shaved; my pits are. Ick to pit hair.
8.) This doesn’t apply to “the” queer female community - only the one that I know. I hate the hypocrisy, especially the hatred of gay men.
9.) When I dress up, I do it right, baby. 
10.) I wear makeup about half the time.
11.) I’ve been known to wear a baseball cap and men’s jeans. In fact, until last week, I didn’t know what size girlie pants I wore. I used to wear boxers exclusively until I discovered The Joy That is Thongs, Particularly T-Backs.
12.) I don’t care for most female singers.
13.) I range from femme to soft butch, depending on my mood and partner. I am mostly attracted to big ole butch dykes. (And I mean that in the most loving way possible). So much so that my friends have suggested that I don’t really like chicks; I like wimpy men.
14.) No, I was raised a repressed Mormon.
15.) With regards to gay issues, I’m apolitical. I feel gay unions should be recognized legally and gay couples should be allowed to adopt.
16.) My gaydar is dead-on.
17.) Extremely. This is a rural area. We’ve all done each other. Wanna hear something funny? The younger sister of the guy who “broke me in”, so to speak, lived with the hubby and me for six months last year. They’re both good. She’s better.
18.) I covered that in the first question, I think…apparently I didn’t stay on-topic. Oops.
19.) Ditto #18.
20.) Melissa Ethridge. Others that I can’t think of now…
21.) Mine - I had to tell my dad In Feb. - I was distraught that girl mentioned in #17 and hubby were no longer getting along. Dad thought I was having financial problems because I was so upset all the time. He kept trying to give me money, so I finally had to let the cat out of the bag. My mom still doesn’t know.
Hello. I realize that, as a heterosexual male, this is not my thread, but I hope you will forgive my hijack, as I would really appreciate a clarification on this, from the poster or anyone else who agrees:
I am especially curious to know, is this considered a distinct phenomenon from men simply objectiying women in and of themselves? And, in either case, what exactly, in terms of thoughts and/or behavior, is meant by “objectifying”?
Okay, I’ll bite.
I think that many men objectify lesbians more so than heterosexual women. I mean, how often do you hear “I don’t mind straight people dating so long as I can watch?”
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Weird_AL_Einstein *
**
I am especially curious to know, is this considered a distinct phenomenon from men simply objectiying women in and of themselves? And, in either case, what exactly, in terms of thoughts and/or behavior, is meant by “objectifying”? **
Sorry to continue the hijack, but andygirl really hit on it with this. It’s the most universal heterosexual male fantasy I know of to want to watch two women having sex. I still don’t get it, but I think in their minds the women are not really lesbians, so the fantasy would always turn out to include them. Here’s a tip: any porno movie scene with two women who are having sex while wearing high heels and sporting inch-long nails is not about, or for, lesbians.
andygirl, I’ll mail you my answers. I don’t feel comfortable posting this information.
Una
As a “het male,” I’d like to respond, too. How many straight men have had gay men say to them “Can I watch you and your girlfriend have sex? Can I join in?” Would most straight men think it was funny? How about after they’d heard it a thousand times?
Also, on the “objectification” of women in general and lesbians in particular: most guys I’ve known who say they “dig lesbians” are basing that statement on what they’ve seen in porn flicks and/or Playboy and Penthouse spreads. How realistic is that crap?
And does it portray women with basic respect for their humanity? I think not.
Speaking personally, I don’t care for the Supermodel/Barbie-doll/anorexic-wearing-only-spike-heels look. I also don’t care for movies with lame acting and nonexistent plots. And I hate to see humans demeaned and sex debased. Thus, I don’t like porn. But I like eroticism. If you don’t know the difference, then we can’t discuss the issue intelligently.
But for those who do understand me, then you’ll see how I can appreciate eroticism if it’s done well…and I don’t care if it’s F/F, M/M, M/F, or combinations thereof.
…just make it “real” and make it tasteful. Such a thing is so rare that I’ve given up on looking for it.
It’s late. Am I making any sense?
Peeks with honor?
TN*hippie
Ok, so…if I were to say “I don’t mind lesbians dating so long as I can watch” then that specific behavior would be considered objectifying lesbians (in addition to being just plain rude in an ordinary sense)? Is there anything else? Please understand, I am not trying to be sarcastic here, I am genuinely interested in knowing what your fellings are on the subject.
Won’t quibble with that 90% figure, but…is this an inherently bad thing? If so, why? What exactly is meant here by “co-opt”?
No argument here.
I can’t speak for the “universal heterosexual male”, only for one of them, namely myself, but I don’t think this is right at all.
Again I won’t quibble, but again I ask, is this a bad thing? If it is, is it simply because all porn is bad, or because there is something especially odious about porn featuring lesbian sex?
Still not trying to be sarcastic here, btw. I’d honestly like to know the answers to these questions.
Never happened to me. Likely the first time I would think it’s funny, actually, but sometime between #1 and #1000 the humor would likely be lost. Is the point here that it is wrong for straight guys to hit on lesbian couples in this fashion? If so, I think it is a fairly obvious one. I’ve never done it myself (not that I’ve had that much opportunity) nor would I. Nor have I ever even heard of such a thing happening, although perhaps I am just sheltered.
There is much here to which I am tempted to respond…the objective rules for distinguishing “erotica” from “porn” (versus the more reliable “I know it when I see it” test) for example. But we are already hijacking this thread.
So…you simply don’t approve of “porn” in general, regardless of whether the theme is lesbian, straight, gay, or whatever? Is that correct? If so, please remember, I am trying to seperate out here people who don’t like pornography and/or erotica in general, from those who dislike it if it has a lesbian theme that may be enjoyed by straight men. And while we’re at it, I’m not just asking what “objectifying” means simply in the context of “porn”, but in any context.
- What do you identify as?
Bisexual
- How short is your hair?
Middle of my back
- Is it a natural color?
Currently it is Blueblack also known as raven.
- If you play sports, what are they?
I play, but I wouldn’t call them sports.
- Do people look at you and think you are terribly terribly gay?
No, but I have fulfilled many men’s fantasies as well as women’s.
- Do you shave your legs?
yes
- Your head? Your armpits?
I shaved my head once for an initiation. I shave my armpits.
- What about the queer female community annoys you?
I like the anti-man thing because spreading intolerence surfaces the demon ™. I don’t like the cliqueishness of a lot of the lesbians I have known.
- What is your idea of dressing up?
Part of my job involves dressing up so I will do that. I am typically a jean and t-shirt girl. When I dress up, I wear all black satin complete with cape.
- Do you wear makeup?
Not for formal functions but sometimes.
- What are “stereotypically lesbian” things that you do/wear/eat? (Expansive question, I know, but work with me. )
I eat and do women. I don’t know how to answer this question really since I don’t believe I do a lot of stereotypically lesbian things.
- What queer/ friendly female recording artists do you listen to?
I have listened to some of the folk lesbian singers but I typically listen to classical music. Garth Brooks is lesbian friendly I think but I don’t listen to him.
- Any thoughts on the butch-femme thing?
Duality in energy is a Wicca thing. I don’t know if I can believe in that.
- Were you a repressed Catholic schoolgirl?
I wish. It would have made my transformation that much more drastic. I am currently a demonalotor who was raised basically agnostic.
- What do you feel are three very important queer woman issues?
I don’t know since I am bi and don’t hang around many strict lesbians.
- How good is your gaydar?
Is that gay radar? I can typically spot the more flamboyant of the bunch.
- How “incestuous” is your dating scene?
Well, we all interdate with both men and women. Even the men interdate with men and women with my circle. I suppose it is incestuous since we don’t really date outside the circle because our religion isn’t widely accepted.
- Describe your dating patterns. (U-Haul, serial monogamy, whatever.)
Completely open. We don’t date anyone in specific and have sex whenever we want.
- Did you/do you date men? How’s that working for you?
I do date men and have a daughter. Men can do some things women can’t replicate so it is good. Women can do things men can’t ever do as well. That is good too.
- Any thoughts on good and bad representations of queer woman in popular culture?
I wouldn’t mind seeing Ellen die. I won’t tell you what I imagine for her. She was funny originally and I enjoyed her. I don’t mind the clip flopping of the Ann girl or whoever that other girl is. Either they are bi and confused or they are trying to go back in the closet for some career oriented motive. Either way lying is a good practice to be familiar with especially if one can convince oneself that the lie is true. It really helps to get your way.
and in closing,
- Tell me a coming out story. Doesn’t have to be yours. Funny, tragic, whatever.
One of the congregation came out to his family as being a demonalotor and bisexual. They thought the former was much worse than the latter but both were equally bad. We don’t know exactly why he told them. He was “abducted” by deprogrammers and when our lawyers eventually found him we got him back safely. We were lucky that time since we share a group power of attorney over eachother.
Respecfully yours,
A Demon Plaything
Daikona, can you clarify something for me?
I’m a (fairly sheltered, it appears) straight male, and have never heard the term ‘transgendered’ before. What does it mean? (Until I saw the statement above, I would have assumed that ‘transgendered’ and ‘transsexual’ would be synonyms.)
Yes you have heard of such a thing happening. You heard about it in this Great Debates thread if nowhere else. Incidentally, I believe the GD forum is suited to your line of questioning in a way that andygirl’s poll thread is not.
It’s my understanding that a transsexual is someone who is going through or has undergone gender reassignment surgery, while someone who is transgendered hasn’t necessarily done that. Many transgendered people do not undergo the surgery for a variety of reasons- cost comes to mind- but that doesn’t stop them from identifying as a member of their non-birth gender.
(Is that right, Kelly?)
Thanks for the clarification, andy! Transsexual I’d heard of, but never transgendered. Muchly appreciated.
Not quite correct. Transgender is more an umbrella term. It includes anyone who is “differently gendered”. Which would include cross dressers and people who want to be something other than male or female.
What about people born with underdermined or ambiguous sex? Do they fall under either term or is that something completely different? I seem to recall ‘transgender’ being used, but no verification that this is actually the preferred term.
Are you talking about intersexuals? (The more commonly known term is hermaphrodites.)
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What do you identify as?
Bi -
How short is your hair?
It’s fairly short but I’m sort of growing it out. It used to be a super-short pixie thingie. -
Is it a natural color?
Yep. -
If you play sports, what are they?
No team sports since junior high (basketball and volleyball) but I run and do yoga and some weight training. -
Do people look at you and think you are terribly terribly gay?
Sometimes. I get a lot of looks from queer women in my 'hood. Of course, I live in Dyke Slope…er, Park Slope. -
Do you shave your legs?
Yes, but the regularity with which I do so varies. -
Your head? Your armpits?
Pits, yes. Head, no. But I’ve shaved a friend’s head! -
What about the queer female community annoys you?
Just today, someone from a queer publication of some sort called my office to see if we wanted to advertise in the publication. My coworker who took the call explained that in our ad placement, we don’t target specific minority groups/ethnicities/etc. (This is true. We target the rich). The caller was pressuring her about ignoring the gay community, in specific. This isn’t about women, exactly, but the persecution complex thing irks me. You have to choose your battles, and I felt that was a poor choice. -
What is your idea of dressing up?
I’m a girly-girl. I’m having a silk shantung dress made for me for my Christmas party. -
Do you wear makeup?
Nearly always. -
What are “stereotypically lesbian” things that you do/wear/eat? (Expansive question, I know, but work with me. ;))
I’ve got the folk music thing down. I wear Birks. I worked at Girl Scout camp for three years. -
What queer/ friendly female recording artists do you listen to?
Dar Williams, Chris Williamson, Joni Mitchell, Indigo Girls, Pat Humphries, Sweet Honey in the Rock, etc. -
Any thoughts on the butch-femme thing?
I dated a butch girl. She had a mullet. Other than the hair, she was hot. -
Were you a repressed Catholic schoolgirl?
Yes! -
What do you feel are three very important queer woman issues?
Frankly, I’m too lazy to answer this question. Maybe I should have read the rest of this thread to get ideas… -
How good is your gaydar?
Pretty good. -
How “incestuous” is your dating scene?
Fairly incestuous, but only on the het side of things. And it was much more so in college. -
Describe your dating patterns. (U-Haul, serial monogamy, whatever.)
I’ve done the U-Haul thing.
-
Did you/do you date men? How’s that working for you?
Dating one now, and very happy about it. -
Any thoughts on good and bad representations of queer woman in popular culture?
Just the usual complaint about all the represetations being so…blatant. By which I mean that when a singer or an actor (or anyone) is queer, that’s how they’re identified. They can’t just be a singer who happens to be queer. They have to a Queer Singer[sup]TM[/sup]. -
Tell me a coming out story. Doesn’t have to be yours. Funny, tragic, whatever.
I came out while in college. My friends were so cool about it. The prevailing reaction was “Hmm. That’s nice.” Nothing changed at all, which was great.