My first experiences when I was trying to date online, long ago, always turned the same way : we had online conversations, long (sometimes very long, like a whole night) phone calls, the match seemed great, we decided to meet, and after about one minute, she, or I, or both, realized it wasn’t going to work and it felt awkward after all these chats and expectations. And it’s not just a matter of physical appearance. You can know whether someone is attractive or not from the pictures (assuming they aren’t extremely misleading).
After that, I proposed to meet very quickly. “Knowing her a bit” is mostly meaningless. Maybe not everybody is like me, but I need to see you “live” to have a clue about whether I’m potentially interested in you or not. Messages don’t cut it. Phone doesn’t cut it. A detailed life resume explaining everything you did since the day of your birth doesn’t cut it. I need to meet you, and this meeting is mostly the only thing that will determine whether I’ve an interest in dating you. Everything happening before is wasted time in my book. And the "knowing you a bit"part can certainly be done during and after this first meeting if there’s some kind of mutual interest.
A caveat : this dates back from before skype (in fact even before internet for me : I was using another kind of network). It might be that video chats could be sufficient for me to have a guess about whether or not I’m potentially interested. Not sure about that, but what makes me shift one way or the other are things like attitudes, facial expressions, etc… so it seems very possible. That said, unless you’re living long away, I don’t see why skype would be preferable to a meeting in flesh.
We’re all a fine illustration of the essential differences between males and females. I don’t usually generalize, or try not to anyway, but in this case, I think it’s justified. Males want to get about the business of it and want a visual, women want to think about it and hear certain things from a guy first. Absolutely no judgments being made here on either side of the divide. I just find it interesting to observe.
Ultimately, to be successful, we all have to think like the ‘other side’. Women have to realize that if they take too long, men are going to get impatient and bolt. Men have to realize that women need at least a little time to decide to pull the trigger on a meet. As in just about anything else in life, a little understanding of one another’s needs makes for a greater chance of a successful meet.
As I have done so many times in the past, I rail against the universe for making the damn dating thing so difficult!
Well, yeah, obviously someone who looks good on paper (or on a screen) can easily turn out to be someone you don’t care for in person. But nobody is suggesting you propose marriage before meeting someone.
The real question is whether you can determine that some people are not for you without meeting them, or someone can seem unsuitable beforehand but then turns out to be a winner in person.
Then there’s the issue that women are going to feel like a piece of meat if you don’t want to hear anything they have to say and just want to meet to (presumably) see what they look like.
There does seem to be that magic 2 week limit, where if there is no face to face in 2 weeks, it either fades away as you run out of get-to-know-you questions or becomes a text buddy.
And in my experience, especially with free sites, there is a good percentage of people who do just want a text buddy. One girl I dated briefly and became friends with (met on OKC) said many men do this as well, and she labeled them as plan B seekers, people currently in a bad relationship looking to set up the landing mat before bailing.
Here are a couple of other tips for you. You probably need to work on your profile first but, after you start getting more hits, go out with some people with no expectations just for practice. Dating is a skill that has to be learned like any other. I grew up in a tiny town where you couldn’t even do traditional dating because you already knew all the potential people since childhood already. I went straight from that to my now ex-wife from 18 - 35 so I had very little experience with dating new people well into adulthood.
To help overcome that, I picked a few people that were definitely interested in me but not necessarily the other way around and came up with activities that we could both enjoy and I could use for practice. None of them worked out in the long-term of course but we went to some cool places and had a good time because there was no pressure and the whole point for me at least was just to have fun with little pressure.
Even then it was still scary at first but it isn’t after you have repeated it several times. You don’t have to hit a home run on the first or even tenth try. Just practice getting dates consistently and learn how to make at least the first one go relatively smoothly. Most of the women will be at least as self-conscious as you are and one of the main skills is learning how to take the lead and make it comfortable and seamless for them.
Another tip is read profiles closely and end your initial correspondence with a sincere question about something in it. That shows that you read what they took the time to write about themselves and are interested in something other than their photo or income. That gives them an obvious reason to respond. I am a sucker for that tactic myself. If I just get some random comments or compliments, that message is going straight in the trash but I will usually answer if someone asks me something specific.
As I wrote, the issue isn’t what she looks like since you can know about that by simply looking at the pictures. The issue is what she feels like. And that I can’t know without meeting her. My experience, again, was that several women seemed a good fit “on paper” (actually rather “on phone”) and it turned out that I could tell almost at first glance that I would have no interest in them as partners.
What you perceive when you’re in the presence of someone is much more than “what she looks like”. You perceive a lot of what she is, of her personality, and, even though I know that lots of people won’t believe me, I will add, from experience, that I’m really good at “guessing” people I meet. Informations can make me rule out people, but no amount of information can make me determine if someone is a good match. Sharing the same tastes, interests, ideas, etc…means close to nothing. Plenty of people that I don’t care about or even dislike share those. Five minutes with someone will tell me way more than five hours on the phone or five weeks messaging.
Words just don’t reflect what people are. IME, they just feed your imagination and make you create in your mind some imaginary person that hardly bears any resemblance with the real individual you’re communicating with. A single attitude, smile, glance, reveals much more about you than a thousand words (especially the carefully thought words you’re likely to use with a potential date).
I don’t think that applies to women. We are more interested in your brain than whether you are hot to look at. So if you want to date women, you kind of have to go through the motions.
This might be a useful trick, but I think it’s morally seriously wrong, especially when you picked women “that were definitely interested in [you]”. You’re playing with their feelings and give them hope when in reality there isn’t any. You’re using people’s feelings to your advantage, just “for practice”.
I understand it’s still unclear for you since it’s only the third time that I write that this has nothing to do with being hot to look at (including in the post you’re quoting), since (again for the third time) you can know that from the pictures.
Just in order not to have to write a fourth post :
There was some hope for them and I definitely kept that option open. I wouldn’t go out with someone that was definitely out of bounds for me but I will consider some borderline cases if they insist enough and give me a good reason to do it. For example, I went out with a very insistent woman that was extremely smart, had a degree from Brown, and had a cool job in international relations. She invited me to a great restaurant in downtown Providence, RI.
We didn’t quite click romantically and that was unfortunate because she was someone I would love to be friends with. We had an excellent time (that I paid for like always) but it was just a one night deal. Admittedly, that is a problem that arises through dating sites. You can like someone but it is mostly a binary decision whether you want to continue to pursue things romantically or not with few other options. I have liked all of the women I have gone out with and would love to be friends with many of them but there is no good way to make that transition.
Sure. But I’m pretty sure that’s the impression people get when you don’t want to talk to them and just push for meeting up.
Yeah, that’s what you wrote earlier. But you’re not addressing my point, which is that maybe you can’t definitely rule someone in through mail/IM/phone (as you say), but I’m pretty sure you can rule a decent number of people out by talking to them online or over the phone.
Two studies that I’ve read about come to mind:
And:
So the phenomenon the OP observes is very real but it looks like it’s counterproductive to push for meeting in person sooner than two weeks after first contact or waiting longer than about four weeks.
I think people wanting pen pals because they are bored and/or in need of attention or an ego boost is definitely a thing. However, I’ll try to explain why I’ve sometimes been pen pal-ish.
An intelligent, articulate guy writes to me about something on my profile. He does everything right, it’s a witty message, perhaps it asks me a thought-provoking question. Now I go to the guy’s profile and I feel a profound “meh”. Not “ew” but no spark. However, I don’t really want to dismiss someone out of hand, especially since they seem smart and friendly, so I give them a chance. Then a conversation develops, but nothing much happens to create the missing chemistry. In those cases I find it hard to extricate myself because it’s a friendly conversation, he says nothing wrong as such, so I have no reason to slam the door. I’ll often try to let it peter out by giving very short answers, but some guys (probably because someone is replying at last) will continue writing anyway. So when I’m then pushed for a meeting, I might say “sorry, but I feel there’s no spark” and they probably feel mad and frustrated with me. And yes, probably I should have said a clear “no thanks” earlier on, but it’s hard to decide when exactly, and I do think most people would rather have a chance than a “no” from the beginning.
I think there are a lot of people in online dating that aren’t as comfortable talking in person. It is one of the benefits of online dating, after all. These people want to know you are a good match before they bother going through the stress of actually meeting you. They’re introverts, and don’t want to waste their energy on someone they aren’t mentally compatible with.
I know I’ve been turned off by a woman who tried to meet with me right away. She came off as desperate. Of course, it didn’t help that she was willing to drive cross country to meet me, either.
I think you’ve hit on something important. Timing is of the essence when it comes to securing a first date. If your email rapport never goes beyond mediocre and your profile (including your pics) are average at best, then what will entice someone to meet up with you? Desperation and boredom, maybe. But not real interest.
If a guy’s profile is just so-so, but his emails to me are thoughtful, intriguing, and engaging, I wouldn’t be against bypassing the phone stage and meeting him quickly. But if our emails never move beyond the weather and what we do for living? All I will imagine is me and him sitting at Starbucks having an awkward conversation. And if he leaves it up to me to pick a place, day, and time, then yeah I probably won’t commit to that.
I think your mistake with this strategy is presenting coffee or a meal as the outcome of interest, rather than getting to know you better. It’s the journey that matters here, not the destination.
Remember also that what you want should be just as important as what they want. Are you content to drink coffee and eat a meal with anyone ole body? I hope not! You should want women to see you as someone with discerning taste, who is in the game to find the best person to spend his time with and not just a warm cloaca. So letting women know you’re willing work for this goal is going to be more attractive that advertising the opposite.
After these 2 or 3 exchanges, how was your rapport? Did you move beyond the superficial? Was the depth of information sharing increasing and expanding or was it staying at small talk level? If the latter, that’s a sign of reeling someone in before giving them any bait to sink their teeth into.
So I suggest watching that you’re not trying to take someone from zero to 100. Be thoughtful in what you say so she thinks you’ve taken a personal interest in her; this will make her feel excited about you too. Pushy is rarely attractive because obviously it screams desperation.
Try using an app that only keeps connections open for a limited amount of time - Hinge, Coffee Meets Bagel, Bumble. That forces the issue and prevents the never ending pen pal. Bumble is especially interesting as the women have to send the first message. You don’t have to waste time sending endless messages into the ether.
As a woman, I will have to disagree. It has been my experience that it’s better to meet up as soon as possible. I found it so awkward to chat with a guy, meet and find there is zero physical attraction. I’m not asking for hotness per se, just attraction. The guy who turned out to have literally black lower teeth, for example. Did he lie? No. It never came up in conversation (as one can imagine). It was an absolute deal breaker for me. In fact, I don’t think a lot of guys lied on purpose - I think they really do believe what they write (example: “I’m 50 but everyone says I look 40.” Uh. No. Nobody believes you look 40…)
It’s hard to have to tell someone it’s not going to work out after prolonged emailing because it’s clear it’s due to his looks.
When I was out there, I wasn’t interested in a pen l, but I also wasn’t interested in actual ly meeting in person unless and until we had had enough telephone conversations for me to feel comfortable that the following things were true:
He wasn’t an ignorant, inarticulate boob.
He wasn’t scary in any respect (that requires a fair amount of substantive conversations…I have been blown away by the crazy that can suddenly pop up like a Jack-in-ihe-box, leaving me enormously relieved that I hadn’t met in person after just a few casual messages or brief conversations)
He had a good idea of me and was still interested.
I was probably going to have a lively and interesting conversation at the very least.
My pre-screening saved both me and the gentlemen lots of time and awkwardness.
I don’t see where any of this would be difficult to determine with a few email exchanges. In fact, the “scary” part would be way easier to detect, IMO, in person, rather than phone or email.