Read with caution, please. Not for the easily offended.

[Maeglin]

Although I don’t have the worldly experience on which to base sweeping generalizations in fact, I would like to share some of my own examples to this discussion. For the record, I tend to come down on Lindsay’s side, though my feelings are less extreme.

The fact is, attractive people get a lot of perks. While they may deal with psychological issues that average or homely people never even think about, there are lots of pragmatic benefits to being cute, especially if you are of the female persuasion. Every day the intern where I work gets a free breakfast from the guy who owns the doughnut cart on my block. Every damned day. And she isn’t even a knockout, not by any means. She is cute, she has breasts, and she wears skirts. Although she has only worked in my office for a week, she is already buddy-buddy with all of the staff. So I asked one of them, a nice married man, why they were all being so nice to her, even though they didn’t have a prayer of getting any. He just shrugged and said she has tits and wears skirts. There was no more to it than that.

So for me, I think that skin-deep attraction means a damned lot in the real world. Do I think that it is the most important factor in a serious, intimate, loving relationship? Hell no. But in the myriad of impersonal dealings we have with other people, it matters a whole lot.
So I gotta ask myself, why are attractive people treated better when what’s at stake is so low? I think it has to do with self-validation. Even though I’ve been in an great relationship with a truly attractive woman for several years, I still like it when the pretty girls smile at me. Not because I want to have sex with them, but because being attractive to sexy women makes me feel good about myself. So when the dumbass doughnut man gives the intern free stuff, even though he’s got a wife and kids at home whom he hopes to feed on his measly income, I suppose I know why. Maybe his heart beats a little faster when she smiles, and just maybe it helps him get through a shitty day in his coffee stand.

MR

[Tymp]

For the record, I tend to come down on Lindsay’s side

I’m having a bit of difficulty believing that you are sincere in this. Could it be that you are a well known poster using a new name in an attempt to give more credit to a weak argument? I’m willing to discuss any topic with you in civil terms, but I’m having difficulty identifying your motives. Perhaps if we are all perfectly honest and frank about who we are and what we truly believe, we can actually accomplish something here.

there are lots of pragmatic benefits to being cute, especially if you are of the female persuasion.

I believe that this would be more accurately stated as follows:
A person may receive immediate, superficial gains within any society if that person attempts to conform to what that society deems desirable. A “cute” American girl is not going to get terribly many “perks” for displaying her physical attributes in Afghanistan. She may, however, reap the reward of having her fingers cut off, her feet burned and her face permanently disfigured. Your concept of “cute” is not universal. You definition only applies to the segment of the population with which you are familiar.

Now, let’s talk about that population.

So I asked one of them, a nice married man, why they were all being so nice to her, even though they didn’t have a prayer of getting any. He just shrugged and said she has tits and wears skirts. There was no more to it than that.

Do you really believe that this is normal and acceptable? What you are dealing with here, are the lowest, most despicable representatives of our culture. Basing generalizations on a handful of ignorant assholes who have yet to escape the mentality of the 1950’s is unwise. Get a new job. There are plenty of healthy, attractive women in my office. Neither I nor any of my male coworkers treat them any differently than we treat each other. That is normal. That is acceptable. To take this a little further, I will not be inclined to deliver any special treatment or opinion to anyone, regardless of their appearance, until they have proven themselves worthy of such attention. Worthiness in this sense is very much dependent on quick wit rather than long legs.

So for me, I think that skin-deep attraction means a damned lot in the real world. Do I think that it is the most important factor in a serious, intimate, loving relationship? Hell no. But in the myriad of impersonal dealings we have with other people, it matters a whole lot.

Now, this is a little strange. Tell me, please, why appearance matters so much in these impersonal dealings? Here I am, typing very impersonal messages to you and, yet, I don’t give a rat’s ass what you look like. Must be something wrong with me. When I’m talking to coworkers or clients, I make no judgement of their appearances. You see, I don’t pay that much attention to a person’s body unless I’m thinking about sex, or hypothesizing minor personality traits based on their appearance. When I see a woman who is appealing to me, I may appreciate her appearance. I may even entertain not-so-noble thoughts about what she might look like dressed only in whipped cream. I won’t treat her in any special way because of the thoughts I have entertained. They’re my thoughts and she has done nothing to earn them. Now, it’s very rare for me to have such thoughts about people I’m interacting with for purposes other than sex. Since I’m comfortable doing lots of things other than rutting like a damned dog, there are lots of people whom I do not think of in such ways. This is normal. If you or someone you know has serious difficulty thinking of something other than sex throughout the course of his normal dealings with other people, I would suggest talk therapy in order to address some self-esteem issues.

So when the dumbass doughnut man gives the intern free stuff, even though he’s got a wife and kids at home whom he hopes to feed on his measly income, I suppose I know why. Maybe his heart beats a little faster when she smiles, and just maybe it helps him get through a shitty day in his coffee stand.

Remember, please, what I’ve typed about self-esteem issues.

[divemaster]

Hey Maeglin, if you are legit, welcome to the SDMB. If you are not, I just have one question for you. Do you require your SO to freshen-up with a spritz of perfume ‘down there’?

If you have no idea what I’m talking about, then I apologize. You just picked a really bad time to jump into the whole “Lindsay” thing.

But I think perhaps you do know what I’m talking about.

[Tymp]

This is Great Debates. This is, perhaps, not the place for me to post what is about to come out of my brain via my fingers. This is, perhaps, not the forum for direct, personal advice. However, rather than constantly harping upon the same topics every few months, I’d like to take a shot at possibly assisting certain members of our lovely community to see an alternative method of judging and interacting with the opposite sex.

First, you are correct in your position that appearance is extremely important in all romantic interaction between humans. There is, in fact, a biological response to the things that we, as individuals, find attractive. This response only occurs when you, the individual, are truly stimulated by what you encounter. People in general are beautifully strange in their diversity. There is no absolute, final description of what is physically attractive. Physical attraction is not the absolute, final criteria by which people judge each other.

[Personal Moment]Right now, I am listening to Hooverphonic. The vocalist has a beautiful voice. I have a strong emotional response to that physical trait of hers that I, as an individual, find tragically, terribly, and wonderfully attractive. The voice alone does not make me want to know her. The words that she has written and the beauty that she has mastered in order to present them does.[/Personal Moment]

Now, there is such a thing as inner beauty. I’m struck by the idea that you [Difranco]”The you that the singer sings to”[/Difranco] have, to your way of thinking, become disillusioned and that you now believe such things to be secondary, at best, to physical beauty. I assure you, such an attitude will fail you in the end. There is no beauty in the voice, no grace in the curves, no power in the attire without life in the mind and the soul. I really hope that you find a beautiful, attractive mate who can share with you the content of her heart and humble you before the true beauty of humanity. I wish such a fate for everyone, actually - especially myself.

You cannot find conformity attractive. A person who conforms to what society has determined to be desirable can only do so for a moment. You will find yourself despising everyone for their inability to consistently achieve the constantly shifting ideal of a community. As soon as an ideal is achieved, it becomes passe. As soon as someone seeks to define a new ideal, they are beautiful. Seek the seeker, and you will be found.

It is not wrong to expect a mate to do things that will please you. It is not wrong to do things to please your mate. You are correct in this. It is wrong, however, to assume that there are specific things a person can do to please all potential mates. Any attempt to do so will dilute the impact of an individual’s unique capacity for beauty.

The world is rich with things that you and I cannot understand until we experience them first hand. Please don’t limit yourself, with blinding worship of the simplest appreciable qualities.

[Tymp]

BTW, ColdFire, if you’re still reading this thread, I’ll take your comment, coming from such an admirable Doper, as a cherished complement, even if it was meant to be read lightly.

[tracer]

pepperlandgirl wrote:

I’m not even cute, or what you people would consider attractive.

Oh I dunno, that picture of you at http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Mezzanine/4348/aboutme.html is pretty cute.

[RickJay]

Surely to God, Tymp, you don’t REALLY think someone needs therapy because they think of sex all the time. All adults think of sex all the time.

It’s coldly scientific and biological, but the truth is that, in personal interaction, people judge one another according to looks. There is no right or wrong associated with it; it’s the plain truth, has always been the truth, and will always be the truth. It has nothing to do witha “1950’s mentality.”

Your belief in your male coworker’s avoidance of such opinions when dealing with attractive female coworkers is admirable. It’s naive and wrong, though; when your male coworkers deal with attractive females, they’re thinking about sex at least some of the time and they unconsciously (as all humans do) make value judgements based on looks. I’m sure every decent adult treats people fairly and consciously avoids basing decisions on looks, but - alas - they’re inclined to let looks enter into their behaviour anyway.

Study after study after study shows that people in a working environment will treat attractive coworkers, subordinates, superiors and even job applicants better than unattractive ones, even when they aren’t conscious of doing so. If I could run the experiment on you blind (assuming you didn’t know it was being done) you would, too. I no more believe you can avoid doing that than I believe you can grow new limbs at will.

This has zip to do with being “shallow” or having the wrong values. It’s instinctive and part of our makeup. It doesn’t excuse shallow or ignorant behaviour any more than our aggressive instincts excuse punching out everyone who irritates us, but let’s not get into absurd idealistic positions about how looks don’t matter for some people. Looks matter for EVERYONE.

I find it interesting that Tymp reacted emotionally to Maeglin making what were actually some fairly pedestrian observations. Maeglin basically said

1. “There are a lot of pragmatic benefits to being cute.” That’s unquestionably true, and anyone who says otherwise just doesn’t have their eyes open.

2. Men afford special treatment, to varying degrees, to attractive women. That’s true, too.

3. Skin-deep attraction isn’t the most important thing in a loving relationship, but it matters a lot in the real world. I cannot imagine a sane person doubting this.

The reaction to this was:

1. Yeah, but not in Afghanistan!

2. Men who do this (which is pretty much every heterosexual male on earth) are “Despicable” and are “ignorant assholes” locked ina mentality from the “1950’s.”

3. People who have sexual thoughts about other people on a regular basis (everyone) need therapy.

I find it really fascinating that fairly basic and true observations of simple human behaviour are met with such emotional, indignant responses.

[pepperlandgirl]

Thank you tracer.

[MagicalSilverKey]

I knew when I op’d that this would be a controversial thread, but I had NO CLUE that it would go THIS far! I am so sorry to all who may have been or are offended. I stated in my op that I didn’t intentionally wish to cause any offense or discord.

I would like to make a few points:
I was stating my observations from two factual points:
[li]One being my online research of personal ads.[/li][li]two, being my own personal real life experience.[/li][li]The online research, I admit, is a poor study group, but it IS still a group to study.[/li]
As for my own personal experiences:
[li]I have met all of the wrong people for me in my lifetime, to date. Unfortunately[/li][li]I have not dated or known the entire female population, nor imply that I do. I only speak of those whom I have had experiences with.[/li][li]I don’t enjoy stereotyping and do not make a habit of doing so.[/li]
The old saying “one bad apple doesn’t spoil the whole bunch” is not a good saying though. If you go out in the orchard, and all the apples have something funky goin on, are you gonna keep pickin til you find the “good” one? Not likely. Every apple is gonna be different. One might have worms, the next a fungus, the next isn’t quite ripe but looks fine, one is too small, one is too big. Whoa, that apple looks TOO good to pick! etc etc. Eventually you just browse and start looking for signs, instead of picking and inspecting each and every individual apple. You look at an apple and say, “hmm, that ones got worms!” without even picking it, but because you didn’t pick it, do you really know if had worms? Maybe it was perfectly fine and just had few spots on it. What about that one? Nope… fungus! Maybe it wasn’t a fungus at all and just a leaf… or maybe it fire blight and so on and so on. That’s how the process works. We aren’t deliberately stereotyping, but we look for signs. We may be wrong, we may be right. But with so many apples out there, who can stop and pick every single one for examination?

Bottom line is: This isn’t about being right, or being wrong IMHO. It’s about observation and how we interpret what we see. Maybe that apple would have made me sick if ate it. Maybe it would have given me great nourishment. How do I know? I don’t. But no one has the time or ability to sort them out, one at a time. Is it fair? NO, far from it. Just an unpleasant part of life.

So, everyone, please stop arguing. There is no right or wrong here, except for the wrongs we commit toward one another by arguing and flaming. Again, my apologies to anyone who has been offended by me. I don’t know YOU so I was not speaking of YOU, I was speaking of what I had observed in group(s) that do not include you, personally. This wasn’t directed TOWARD anyone here.

I am spent for now. Good night people, and best wishes.
MSK

[PRISM02]

Shayna:

You’re kidding, right? You don’t see how this is offensive?

quote:
I actually tend to avoid very pretty women because they have a tendency to be rather popular and rather shallow. Plus, they don’t age well.

Personal opinion from personal experience and observation, though perhaps a bit general. I base this on the many beautiful women I’ve known personally through the years and whom I’ve noticed age. As a side note, I have noticed that those who have enough money to take the expensive ‘rejuvenation’ treatments are the exception or those who do stay very active and exercise. Plus, those famous beautiful women I’ve watched on TV.

Example: Dyane Cannon, and ‘Ginger’ from Gilligans Island. (Boy! Did she fall apart.) However Dawn Wells (Maryann from Gilligans Island) still looks pretty good through exercise and plastic surgery and beauty treatments.)

However, I should say that this does not mean that all beautiful women age poorly. Still, I rely on my own observations.

[yosemite]

Just a few ramdom thoughts, it’s late at night.

I am a sometimes attractive/sometimes not attractive woman. I have my “cute” months and years, and then not. Usually I’m in between. I’ll never be beautiful, though.

Yes, attractive people get more perks. I see it all the time. This is not always at the expense of homely people, though. For some reason I remember waiting in the checkout line at Thrifty’s (now RiteAid) and the young male clerk just fawned over a cute blonde thing in line in front of me. But - it isn’t like he was rude to me by comparison. (Anyway, I wouldn’t want him to fawn over me - he was just a kid!) Sometimes the treatment is at the expense of the unnattractive person. I’ve been treated with unbridled cruelty (especially in my teen years, when kids are far more tactless) because I wasn’t thin enough, or pretty enough. Being treated like that does give you a different perspective on things, let me tell you.

But, getting back to the original point, yes, YES, attractive people get more perks in everyday life. A few times, for whatever reason, I have even been known to get a few perks. (Especially from auto mechanics - don’t know why.) But, I am NOT that cute - the auto mechanics just happened to decide I was their “type”. Because I am not beautiful, I never have becomed accustomed to these perks, since they are not a common occurance for me. However, one of my sisters is quite pretty, and she has become used to the perks - all the admiring glances and flattering treatment from men. And yes, I think it makes her view life a little differently. My guess is that attractive people who get lots of deference and perks in life perhaps might take these things for granted. Some of them, anyway. And maybe that makes them a little more indignant if they don’t get treated the way they are accustomed. I don’t think that an attractive person’s life is all perfectness and happiness, though. But I think that sometimes (sometimes) being attractive can make a person’s life a little easier. And maybe they view life in a different light compared to the unnattractive person.

As far as attractiveness in a mate, I totally agree with Ptahlis about this issue. He relates how he met this skinny girl with braces, and after months of getting to know her, found her to be very attractive. I believe among many people, this is how it works. Go to your average mall, and look at the couples walking around. Surely many of them are not Ken and Barbie. Some of them probably look like Jack Sprat and his wife. But they hooked up somehow, and presumably, they find each other attractive. That’s how it seems to work a lot of the time. The plain person you meet last week becomes this fascinating, beautiful woman that you are transfixed by this week. Because you took the time to get to know her. So, I agree - attractiveness is a big component to a relationship, but what is “attractiveness” anyway? It isn’t always a supermodel figure. It can be a nice pair of eyes, or dimples in cheeks, or cute toes, on an otherwise ordinary-looking person.

Final note - lindsay - please, by all that is holy, stop finding the Return Key quite so much. We know you know where it is, now ease up a bit. Thank you.

[PRISM02]

A female friend of mine is ‘attractive’ but plain. She is short, has jet black, very straight hair, a cheerful personality and she once would have been very pretty. A very, vary hard life left her showing it on her face.

Her sister, however, has had a different life and is beautiful. (Man – is she!) She is not as friendly or down to earth as my friend. She has no problem in getting dates from good looking guys. She is somewhat shallow while my friend is deep.

While I would not have any problem in taking a romp in the hay with the girl, my friend would be one I’d consider more seriously. Unfortunately, my friend’s background and basic attitudes made me decide long ago to keep her only as a friend. Plus, while she is cute, she is not as cute as I like. (Too many drugs, too much booze, too many beatings by ex-boyfriends and too many months in jail.)

Still, I can determine the difference between her and her beautiful sister. My friend would give you the shirt off of her back if she thought you needed it, whereas her sister might try to find someone else’s shirt to give you.

We all have our standards. A friend of mine, male, who was divorced from what I can only describe as a ‘great fat hog of a belligerent, nasty mouthed, selfish woman’ met my female friend and complimented me on her attitude but said her face was too rough. (I, thinking of the pallid, doughy, wide puss of his ex, said nothing.) His standards are different.

It does not mean that we are wrong. It does not mean that we are right.

I have known women who go for the ‘studs’. I worked with a ‘STUD,’ who looked like he should have been posing for a rugged work booth ad while carrying a steel I beam on his shoulder and flashing his even pearly whites from his square chinned, youngish manly face with ‘just’ the right touch of stubble. Girls came out of nowhere to gawk at or encounter him. He had more ‘casual lays’ than anyone I know. He had the morals of an ally cat, but most of the girls were not interested in marriage - just sex.

I went to a bar with another friend of mine some years ago, who pumps iron. He has problems finding pants and shirts to fit. Girls were sending him notes on napkins and totally ignoring plain old me. The fact that he had on a wedding ring did not seem to slow them down any. I don’t think they were all that interested in his personality.

So, ladies, it is not just guys who display this behavior.

[Tymp]

RickJay,

Thanks so much for addressing my remarks in their original context.

All adults think of sex all the time.

I just think we all need to read this statement again. I had no idea that humans were so simple. I guess this settles everything.

2. Men who do this (which is pretty much every heterosexual male on earth) are “Despicable” and are “ignorant assholes” locked ina mentality from the “1950’s.”

What you’ve addressed here, Rick, is my response to Maeglin’s account of a conversation with a coworker. Please read that account again. Then come back and tell me that such a mentality is acceptable and excusable. A few years ago, it was generally accepted that women must tart themselves up and draw the attention of men in order to find any respectable place in society. Women could expect to be treated as objects of no more worth than visual effect of their physical attributes. A small group of people still believes that this is the way things should be. Others are capable of recognizing their biological needs and urges for what they are and still function as respectable members of a modern society.

When I am hungry, Rick, and I see someone eating a sandwich, my basest urge would be to take that sandwich. The sandwich owner would have a strong desire to defend that sandwich with his life if necessary. It is not acceptable for people to beat the crap out of each other over a sandwich, no mater what our biological needs and drives might be. Those who would do so are despicable and stuck in a 2000 BC mentality.

When I see an attractive woman, Rick, my basest urge is to mate with her immediately. Such an action is generally unacceptable. What is acceptable, is for me to recognize her as yet another member of my society with a biology that complements my own and work with her to achieve things beyond our most basic biological needs. Wacky, isn’t it?

The reaction to this was:

1. Yeah, but not in Afghanistan!

Um, no. The reaction was

I believe that this would be more accurately stated as follows:
A person may receive immediate, superficial gains within any society if that person attempts to conform to what that society deems desirable.

Then I went on to explain how tarting yourself up and being cute is not what every society deems desirable. I would even venture to say that being cute is not what any society deems desirable at all times. Doesn’t seem like that much of a stretch to me while I’m sitting here in my office, waiting for an application to load, and not giving to bits what my physical appearance or anyone else’s suggests. In fact, such things are about as important to me right now as what you have had for breakfast. Then again, I am a freak. We know this because you have already established that humans are incapable of thinking of anything other than sex at any time.

I’m sure every decent adult treats people fairly and consciously avoids basing decisions on looks, but - alas - they’re inclined to let looks enter into their behaviour anyway.

This statement of yours could easily be read as meaning that indecent adults do not consciously avoid basing decisions on looks. This seems pretty much in line with statements I have made. I wonder about this quote, though, how much do looks enter into a person’s behavior? Are not these decent people, of which you and I are so fond, capable of recognizing appearance as being irrelevant during non-sexual activities?

Surely to God, Tymp, you don’t REALLY think someone needs therapy because they think of sex all the time. All adults think of sex all the time.

Leave your god alone, Rick. He’s busy. Besides, my suggestion was talk therapy for those lacking ego and self-esteem. Such lacking often results in the valuation of easily affected and controllable traits such as physical appearance over more useful traits such as intelligence and character. Constant thoughts of simple human function like sex is, sometimes, an avoidance of thoughts of a more immediate and weighty matter. Please reread Maeglin’s account of the creepy doughnut guy for a good example of this.

I’m very sorry, Rick, if my posts were unclear. I hope this helps. I’m also sorry if you are concerned by the emotion expressed in my posts, but, you see, I actually believe this stuff that I spew.

[Maeglin]

I am shocked by the vehemence of Tymp’s reply. Nothing that I said was inflammatory in the least. Not only did Tymp try to stomp on my completely commonplace observations, s/he also peppered the reply with kiddie vitriol. Tymp, do you really want to step up to me? I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and post nicely one more time.
quote:
For the record, I tend to come down on Lindsay’s side

quote:

I’m having a bit of difficulty believing that you are sincere in this.

What you believe is not relevant. Reply on the level of what I said.

quote:

Could it be that you are a well known poster using a new name in an
attempt to give more credit to a weak argument?

That is totally spurious. For the record, I am brand spanking new here. And whether I am using a new handle or not has absolutely no relevance to the content of my post. You are using every possible way to discredit me for absolutely no reason.

quote:
I’m willing to discuss any topic with you in civil terms, but I’m having difficulty
identifying your motives.

I was perfectly civil. You have started to throw manure at me. Frankly, I don’t give a damn how hard it is for you to identify my motives. Maybe I just like shooting my mouth off online, where I am not accountable for what I say. Or maybe I have a real opinion on this issue, and since it was raised in the first place, I felt compelled to post. You will never know. So stop caring.

quote:
Perhaps if we are all perfectly honest and frank about who we are and what we truly believe, we can actually
accomplish something here.

Accomplish? Give me a break. It appeared that we were having a dialogue on the merits of physical attractiveness. People were stating opposing views. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Do you think that the purpose of this discussion is to sway everyone to your side? If not, then why do you think my post has detracted so much from this little quibble?

                          quote:

                          there are lots of pragmatic benefits to being cute, especially if you are of the female persuasion. I believe that this would be more accurately stated as follows: A person may receive immediate, superficial gains within any society if that person attempts to conform to what that society deems                 desirable.

This is just your spin. This discussion is not about a universal aesthetic of beauty. No one made that claim, and no one is going to make that claim. Since we are talking about benefits one receives by society at large, the above point is too obvious to be made. But since, Tymp, you are banging your head against the obvious, you had to make this point in order to detract from mine. Bravo.

quote:
A “cute” American girl is not going to get terribly many “perks” for displaying her physical attributes in Afghanistan. She may, however, reap the reward of having her fingers cut off, her feet burned and her face permanently disfigured.

This is so transparent as to be laughable.

quote:
Your concept of “cute” is not universal. You definition only applies to the segment of the population with which you are familiar.

Captain Tymp Obvious scores again.

quote:
Now, let’s talk about that population.

Which is what I have been trying to do all along. Don’t blame me for your tangents.

                          quote:

So I asked one of them, a nice married man, why they were all being so nice to her, even though they didn’t have a prayer of getting any. He just shrugged and said she has tits and wears skirts. There was no more to it than that.

quote:
Do you really believe that this is normal and acceptable? What you are dealing with here, are the lowest, most despicable representatives of our culture.

Do you really believe that? You are prepared to call this man, who happens to be a fine individual, part of the lowest, most depicable element, down there in the 9th ring with the traitors, without knowing a damned thing about him? Oh, you do know that he likes to make pretty girls smile. Tymp’s gavel goes down, and my friend the maintenance man is condemned. Talk about baseless generalizations.

quote:
Basing generalizations on a handful of ignorant assholes who have yet to escape the mentality of the 1950’s is unwise. Get a new job.

Do take your own advice. You have extrapolated from my example that this man is an asshole, a despicable person, ignorant, and trapped in the mentality of the 1950s. Does anyone else think that perhaps Tymp’s deductive skills are working a little too hard?

quote:
There are plenty of healthy, attractive women in my office. Neither I nor any of my male coworkers treat them any differently than we treat each other. That is normal. That is acceptable.

So you say. But you have no idea what goes on in the heads of these male coworkers when they are placed in a position to benefit these attractive women. Now I don’t, either. I am not making any generalizations about their feelings, and I don’t think you should, either.

quote:
To take this a little further, I will not be inclined to deliver any special treatment or opinion to anyone, regardless of their appearance, until they have proven themselves worthy of such attention. Worthiness in this sense is very much dependent on quick wit rather than long legs.

Well congratulations. I don’t care what you do in your personal life. That is not even remotely the issue at hand.

quote:
So for me, I think that skin-deep attraction means a damned lot in the real world. Do I think that it is the most important factor in a serious, intimate, loving relationship? Hell no. But in the myriad of impersonal dealings we have with other people, it matters a whole lot.

quote:
Now, this is a little strange. Tell me, please, why appearance matters so much in these impersonal dealings? Here I am, typing very impersonal messages to you and, yet, I don’t give a rat’s ass what you look like. Must be something wrong with me.

This is a truly inane comment. Of course you don’t care what I look like. You are in no position to know. Nor are you in a position to benefit from your appearance in any way in this conversation, and vice versa. I don’t increase my self-esteem making you smile. Rather, I increase my self-esteem by creating vicious things to say to you. So, to be perfectly honest, this may as well not be a relation, impersonal or otherwise, since it wouldn’t matter to me whether you were there or not.

quote:
When I’m talking to coworkers or clients, I make no judgement of their appearances.

Prima facie this might appear to be enlightened. But I think that a great deal can be understood about a person from his/her appearance, and I’m not even talking about physical attraction. Do you not notice when someone carries himself well? Or is well-groomed? Or obviously takes care of his body? If not, then I think you are cutting off your nose despite your face. In your desire to be sex-judgment free, you are missing out on lots of important obvservations that can be made about someone. On the other hand, if you do make these observations but somehow measuring someone’s sexual attraction does not come into the picture, I would doubt your ability to keep the two categories of judgment apart.

quote:
You see, I don’t pay that much attention to a person’s body unless I’m thinking about sex, or hypothesizing minor personality traits based on their appearance.

What do you know, I just yammered on about that. Where do you draw the line?

quote:
When I see a woman who is appealing to me, I may appreciate her appearance. I may even entertain not-so-noble thoughts about what she might look like dressed only in whipped
cream. I won’t treat her in any special way because of the thoughts I have entertained.

That’s fine. And if you really want to know something…neither would I. I am not interested in giving preferential treatment to people based on their appearance. But that does not mean that society at large behaves this way. And more importantly, it does not mean that everyone who does should be condemned so vociferously.

Let me make myself crystal clear. I don’t think this kind of behavior is a good or productive thing. But I do think it is of greater value to understand it rather than to condemn it out of hand. If you are interested in talking about why people behave like this, then I would be happy to continue the conversation.

quote:

They’re my thoughts and she has done nothing to
earn them. Now, it’s very rare for me to have such thoughts about people I’m interacting with for purposes other than sex. Since I’m
comfortable doing lots of things other than rutting like a damned dog, there are lots of people whom I do not think of in such ways. This
is normal. If you or someone you know has serious difficulty thinking of something other than sex throughout the course of his normal
dealings with other people, I would suggest talk therapy in order to address some self-esteem issues.

Um…duly noted.

MR

[John_Corrado]

lindsay said:

Do you think for a minute that when a guy sees a babe he thinks how much he would like to discuss Shakespeare with her?

Boys don’t.
Men do.

Sorry to see you still don’t have that entire ‘maturity’ thing sorted out.
As for the OP-
I don’t think it’s the case that unattractive people tend to have better personalities than attractive people, or that there’s really any correlation. Some people who are attractive are assholes because they know they can get away with it (see lindsay); some people who are attractive are wonderful, caring people either because of good, grounded upbringing or because they spent a good bit of time as an outsider or outcast and learned empathy (see Shayna). Likewise, some unattractive people have learned empathy and developing their personality as a measure to balance their unattractiveness; others have become bitter and resentful of the abuse they received, and have turned themselves ugly inside as well as out.

As for the findings of the OP, it only goes to reason. People who are attractive in body as well as spirit are the Holy Grail of dating, and it’s hard to believe that such people would need to advertise in Personals. Ergo, most of the people that would represent that part have already removed themselves from your sample, making it invalid.

[Gaudere]

[Moderator Hat ON]

Guys, take it down a notch or it’s going in the Pit.

[Moderator Hat OFF]

[PRISM02]

lindsay said:
quote:

Do you think for a minute that when a guy sees a babe he thinks how much he would like to discuss Shakespeare with her?

Boys don’t.
Men do.

Sorry to see you still don’t have that entire ‘maturity’ thing sorted out.

I think I might disagree with this to some extent. Almost all men I know react sexually instantly towards a pretty woman upon first visual contact. The maturity steps in when they handle that initial reaction. I’ve worked in large groups of men in various forms of employment to have observed this time and time again, from the white to the blue collar worker. From the ‘suits’ to the ‘jeans’. Heavy labor workers are most vocal about it but Mr. $100,000 a year executive will be much more discrete - but his visceral response will be the same.

Emotional responses are natural and basely animal/primitive. Maturity steps in on how a person handles these responses to make them socially acceptable. Like the illustration a poster made concerning a sandwich. One might see someone with a delicious sandwich and have the urge to snatch it for oneself but the maturity range steps in to control such urges to a socially acceptable level. One then either makes or purchases a similar sandwich for oneself because one knows that the consequences of acting on base emotions can cause one much problems which would outweigh the enjoyment of ‘snatching’ said sandwich. (That includes getting punched by said sandwich owner.)

The human male, according to various sources, has a sexual thought every 16 seconds. (I think this mainly applies to young human males, like 15 through their 20s.) The human male is also hard wired to respond to the shape of the human female. Older mature males will still have many sexual thoughts throughout the day though more when stimulated by being within visual range of females. In an enclosed working environment this can get probably more intense because of pheromones floating through the air.

It is nature.
Maturity is learning to control the base urges.
I have never encountered a girl where my first impulse was to discuss anything written with her – unless in the area of my work and I needed her input. Socially - no. I might grasp at things to initially chat with her about in order to get to know her, but the initial attraction is always basically sexual.

[John_Corrado]

PRISM02 said:

It is nature.
Maturity is learning to control the base urges.

Agreed; however, I would add as well that maturity is learning why to control the base urges.

More to the point- the attitude lindsay seems to hold, and wish to have validated, is that men desire sex, and therefore women must do their best to accomodate that desire, and that a woman who doesn’t poof her hair and perfume her genitals in order to chain down a rich stud is just a failure.

Yes, the sexual urge does exist, and an initial first impression may be completely sexually oriented. However, mature men look for something more than sex in a relationship; as a result, while a ‘babe’ may get the immediate ‘want to screw’ reaction, a mature man stops before acting in order to decide whether casual, meaningless sex is all he wishes, and generally decides against it. Ergo, whether that ‘babe’ is someone worth discussing Shakespeare with does, in fact, become important assuming the man wishes to open a conversation with something other than a cleaned-up version of “Hi, here’s $50, let’s go fuck.”

[Tymp]

Well, hot damn! Here we are, headed pitwards again, and it looks like it’s my fault. That’ll never do.

Maeglin,

You came on board with your first post at precisely the point in this discussion when certain posters would have created a second or third identity to agree with themselves. I was geared up and bristling for just such an event. This is childish and foolish on my part. I’m sorry to have subjected you, the innocent newcomer, to my reactionary viciousness.

Tymp, do you really want to step up to me?

Hell, yeah! I do admire your treatment of me in your second post and look forward to clashing respectfully with you again. Welcome to the SDMB, Maeglin. I’m sure you already know that any view or attitude expressed by me is not necessarily shared by any other fine members of this community. They are much more civil than I.

Maybe I just like shooting my mouth off online, where I am not accountable for what I say.

This is why I bristle. Here I am, posting things that I actually believe, completely willing to back them up in a more or less sensible debate, and you might just be here to antagonize.

But since, Tymp, you are banging your head against the obvious, you had to make this point in order to detract from mine. Bravo.

The point you were making, as I read it, is that, based on what you have observed at your place of work, physical beauty is rewarded with “perks”. Now, off I went, “banging my head against the obvious”, to suggest that this is not some universal truth. There I go again! You, see, Maeglin, I really thought you were, in fact, presenting this as a universal truth. Thank you for reassuring me.

Do you really believe that? You are prepared to call this man, who happens to be a fine individual, part of the lowest, most depicable element, down there in the 9th ring with the traitors, without knowing a damned thing about him? Oh, you do know that he likes to make pretty girls smile. Tymp’s gavel goes down, and my friend the maintenance man is condemned. Talk about baseless generalizations.

Okay. Maybe he’s a fine, upstanding individual. When his response to your inquiries regarding his interaction with a female intern is this:

He just shrugged and said she has tits and wears skirts.

maybe he doesn’t really mean it. I have difficulty with the idea of a good man being capable of stating proudly or casually that he is willing to judge people’s worthiness of his attention based solely on their physical appearance. It doesn’t take a lot more than that to indicate to me that a person is rife with unpalatable attitudes. Baseless generalization? Hardly.

So you say. But you have no idea what goes on in the heads of these male coworkers when they are placed in a position to benefit these attractive women. Now I don’t, either. I am not making any generalizations about their feelings, and I don’t think you should, either.

I seem to recall you stating something to the effect that

The fact is, attractive people get a lot of perks.

This would suggest that people everywhere are willing to grant perks to attractive people. You backed this up by pointing out what you have observed. I chose to contradict this claim by pointing out that I have observed something different. I am perfectly willing to admit that there are people in the world who do not fit the general description that I have developed based on the actions that I have observed. In fact, I know that indecent people engage in unacceptable activities frequently. Don’t need to point that out, do I? Are you willing to accept that some people are decent even though some that you have observed are not?

Captain Tymp Obvious scores again

Whoa, pal! Wasn’t your first post devoted to pointing out that physical attraction sometimes has value in human interaction? I never would have thought of that. Did you not also point out that some people can be observed making judgments based solely on appearance? Now, this particular quote of yours was in reaction to me pointing out that the things you seemed to be presenting as universal were not. I’m glad that something that completely contradicts your statements is perfectly obvious to you.

What do you know, I just yammered on about that. Where do you draw the line?

Sorry? Come again?

I am not interested in giving preferential treatment to people based on their appearance. But that does not mean that society at large behaves this way.

What!? I thought I was trading jabs with someone who had made some pretty sweeping statements about how attractive people are treated. Now it’s down to trading eye pokings with someone who’s fully aware that such statements are invalid.

I don’t think this kind of behavior is a good or productive thing. But I do think it is of greater value to understand it rather than to condemn it out of hand. If you are interested in talking about why people behave like this, then I would be happy to continue the conversation.

The type of behavior in question is pretty easy to understand, IMO. What’s a bit more puzzling is why people like you and I claim to follow a different behavioral pattern that seems so much more refined. My rambling, half-tipsy post at 20:39 yesterday, was an attempt to address just that.

Maeglin, I’m terribly sorry for my initial assault on your position and character. I’m very glad that you returned with a scathing response rather than leaving in frustration disgust. Now that we’ve got that out of our – Excuse me. Now that I’ve got that out of my system, can we proceed as gentlemen?

[Maeglin]

*Originally posted by Tymp *
**Well, hot damn! Here we are, headed pitwards again, and it looks like it’s my fault. That’ll never do.

Fogive me for asking, and I mean no sarcasm…but why is the Pit such a bad thing? It would seem that everyone would want to talk in a place where they can reveal their true feelings using colorful language.

Maeglin,

You came on board with your first post at precisely the point in this discussion when certain posters would have created a second or third identity to agree with themselves. I was geared up and bristling for just such an event. This is childish and foolish on my part. I’m sorry to have subjected you, the innocent newcomer, to my reactionary viciousness.

<shrugs> NP. To be honest, I never would have even thought of that. For me, a person’s identity is as important as his/her argument. I want people to know that my arguments are proceeding from my fevered brain.

And I may be a newcomer here, but I’m no stranger to internet battlefields. <s>

Tymp, do you really want to step up to me?

Hell, yeah! I do admire your treatment of me in your second post and look forward to clashing respectfully with you again. Welcome to the SDMB, Maeglin. I’m sure you already know that any view or attitude expressed by me is not necessarily shared by any other fine members of this community. They are much more civil than I.

Well thank you. I am glad there are some like-minded people out there who enjoy being on the receiving end, too <s>. I love a good clash…you’ve made my day.

Maybe I just like shooting my mouth off online, where I am not accountable for what I say.

This is why I bristle. Here I am, posting things that I actually believe, completely willing to back them up in a more or less sensible debate, and you might just be here to antagonize.

The point I was making is that you never really know. I often post things that I don’t believe against people whose positions I agree with just to test the logic, or so to speak. Antagonism is all fine and well, but I am more interested in arriving at more reasoned opinions for myself.

But since, Tymp, you are banging your head against the obvious, you had to make this point in order to detract from mine. Bravo.

The point you were making, as I read it, is that, based on what you have observed at your place of work, physical beauty is rewarded with “perks”. Now, off I went, “banging my head against the obvious”, to suggest that this is not some universal truth.

I believe that the point you were making was that one kind of beauty is not necessarily rewarded in another society. Dress your cute American girl up in traditional garb and teach her to behave like an attractive, unmarried Afghani, and I am willing to bet that the results will be similar, but certainly not identical.

There I go again! You, see, Maeglin, I really thought you were, in fact, presenting this as a universal truth. Thank you for reassuring me.

I don’t think that any one kind of beauty is universal, no. But I don’t think that is what you are arguing with.

[Interesting material regretfully snipped]

What do you know, I just yammered on about that. Where do you draw the line?

Sorry? Come again?

The line between assessing someone’s appearance from a purely analytical view to assessing someone’s appearance in a sexual way. I don’t think that you have to be picturing yourself having sex with someone to be estimating their attractiveness sexually.

I am not interested in giving preferential treatment to people based on their appearance. But that does not mean that society at large behaves this way.

What!? I thought I was trading jabs with someone who had made some pretty sweeping statements about how attractive people are treated. Now it’s down to trading eye pokings with someone who’s fully aware that such statements are invalid.

Just because I don’t do it doesn’t mean it’s invalid. I originally made some pretty ordinary observations about the way attractive people were treated. My point was merely that pretty people have it easy in many respects. That’s all. Very baseline. That’s what RickJay was trying to say, when he wondered why you became so indignant. Nothing I said was revolutionary, nor did it stray away from common observation. Now the fact that I think superficial judgments based on appearance may not be valid, that does not imply that they do not occur. On a regular basis.

I don’t think this kind of behavior is a good or productive thing. But I do think it is of greater value to understand it rather than to condemn it out of hand. If you are interested in talking about why people behave like this, then I would be happy to continue the conversation.

The type of behavior in question is pretty easy to understand, IMO.

I don’t think it is. Why would someone go completely out of his/her way, often to the point of causing small self-injury, for absolutely no chance of any gain? Simply chalking it up to a low self-esteem seems too simplistic an answer for me. People with perfectly normal feelings of self-worth are often guilty of the same behavior.

What’s a bit more puzzling is why people like you and I claim to follow a different behavioral pattern that seems so much more refined. My rambling, half-tipsy post at 20:39 yesterday, was an attempt to address just that.

I am sorry, but I am not sure if I understand this last point.

Maeglin, I’m terribly sorry for my initial assault on your position and character. I’m very glad that you returned with a scathing response rather than leaving in frustration disgust.

No hard feelings whatsoever. You got as good as you gave, and now we can chuckle about it.

Now that we’ve got that out of our – Excuse me. Now that I’ve got that out of my system, can we proceed as gentlemen?
**

Well, the truth is, do you have any way of knowing what my gender is? My handle is rather ambiguous. <s> But yes, we can proceed as gentle-people. <s>

MR