This is the most retarded argument I’ve seen in quite awhile. You’ve backed yourself into a corner, and you’re doggedly defending the absurd idea that a first-ballot hall of famer is not as good as a guy with three Pro Bowl appearances in his whole career. Based on what? “TDs per reception?”
Clearly, his peers are all ignorant about what really defines value, since Jackson has a better ratio guys like Larry Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, Steve Smith, and Reggie Wayne, (to say nothing of, like, 80% of HOF receivers) and yet the stupid players keep picking those guys over the obviously superior Vincent Jackson. Clearly they’re just “gold star” guys.
Give it up, man. You made an exagerration, without thinking it through. It happens. Don’t make an ass out of yourself by refusing to back down.
Hey, now - let’s not make this personal, furt. I happen to have a strong preference for WRs who score points for their teams. I’d take about 5 current receivers over Irvin. VJax is simply a maybe.
This is all hypothetical bullcrap, but if you drop any of the players you mentioned (VJax included) into the golden bosom of the 90’s Dallas offense, they’re not much worse, if at all. Maybe Emmitt Smith scores a few less TDs and the WRs a few more.
Well, no. If Irvin was truly great, the offense would have revolved around him. Though to be fair, he’d probably own every receiving record if he’d stayed off the cocaine.
Only the Redskins bit. Ricky Williams was picked 5th. Obviously it was not “a deal that any franchise would take.” And the fact that the team that took the deal subsequently did fuck it up, turning 8 picks into 2 busts, a HOF cornerback who refused to resign with them once he was eligible for free agency, and an injury prone linebacker who was out of the league in 7 seasons, is clearly evidence that they were incompetent and mismanaged.
ETA: the Bears got 5 picks from the Redskins for their #7 pick, which they turned into Cade McNown, D’Wayne Bates, Warrick Holdman, Khari Samuel and Dustin Lyman. Not exactly a murderer’s row of football players there, either.
Here’s the problem with your “Golden Bosom” theory: Jackson’s teams scored more points than Irvin’s did, in large part because they were in an era where points, and especially TD passes, were more plentiful.
Also, he had the benefit of being the “other” target at the goal line in SD; Gates was the one drawing double-coverage most of the time.
Dude, this is like cherry picking as an art form. Champ Bailey doesn’t count because he didn’t re-sign? Even assuming that was a relevant point - it’s not - he played five seasons for the team before being traded and made the Pro Bowl in all of them except his rookie year.
Seriously, it’s like saying “in 1998, the Colts drafted seven busts. They also got a quarterback, but he left town as soon as he was a free agent.”
Your first paragraph doesn’t refute my position. I understand the rules have created a pass-happy era. I posit that Dallas would not have been much worse with VJax, and probably better with some of the other receivers you name.
Irvin was great between the 20’s. Other players have been much better inside the red zone. His TD total is pedestrian due to era, longevity, team, and, undoubtedly, his own ability.
Oh, huh. I thought I remembered the Redskins drafting #2 that year, not #5.
Any franchise would be crazy to pass up that deal, with the possible exception of having an Andrew Luck type prospect #1 overall. I would have to say that whoever drafted #2, #3, and #4 were incredibly stupid (the Browns were stupid too, but in this particular case they were unable to trade the pick).
I just don’t see how you can say that only dysfunctional organizations are part of blockbuster trades when it’s clear that anyone should take another team’s entire draft + 2 picks next year for one of their picks. Washington used those picks badly because they were a poor organization, but actually making that trade should’ve was an obvious slam dunk fist pump sort of thing.
Irvin: 65 TDs in 159 games 0.408 per game; League average ~1.3 per game, Team average ~1.0 per game
Jackson: 54 in 133 games 0.406 per game; League average ~1.5 per game, Team average ~1.6 per game.
Even looking only at TDs, Irvin is better, and much better when you adjust for context. Explain again how it is Irvin is the one with "pedestrian’ numbers?
Your original argument was “it’d be a coin flip for me between him and Irvin.”
The only objective argument you’ve offered in support of that is a “TD per reception” stat, which basically suggests that while Irvin was significantly better in close, it should be held against him as a bad thing that he was vastly better on the rest of the field.
VJax has Irvin in YPC, too, despite the fact that a higher percentage of VJax’s catches “ended” at the goal line. Your rate stats above beg the context of targets, where I’m sure Irvin wins in a landslide. And you continue to ignore who’s been throwing the ball to VJax the last 3 years. Matters quite a bit. Despite that, 19.2 YPC with somebody named Freeman at QB.
What’s becoming clear is Irvin was a great deep threat possesion receiver. Meh.
Just took a closer look at Jackson, with targets in mind, and he seems to have a below average catch percentage, even with Rivers throwing to him. That seems to be the hole in his game, although I’ve not heard anyone complain about his hands. Crappy QBs the last 3 years have exacerbated the issue. Irvin played before targets were counted, but it’d be a stretch to imagine his percentage is as low.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you; on paper, it’s a no brainer. But in practice, there’s something else at play that makes ineptly managed teams more likely to engage in these sorts of trades; I’d imagine desperation and a willingness to gamble are big factors, and generally only the worst teams seem to be willing to take that risk; furthermore these bad teams are most likely to mismanage the wealth of riches they suddenly find themselves with.
Interesting (an perplexing) fact: in that 1999 draft the Colts drafted a different RB before Ricky Williams (Edgerrin James at #4). While I’m sure that gamesmanship is a big part of NFL General Managing, I don’t understand why they wouldn’t take that deal and leave it for Washington.
Well, the Falcons traded a couple of first rounder, a second rounder, and a couple 4th rounders to move up and draft Julio Jones. At the time, they were coming off a 13-3 record and a couple playoff appearances. They thought they were just one player away.
I was against the trade when it occurred, and I still am. And, given how the Falcons now have a metric butt-load of problems on their O line and the entirety of their defense is a sieve, I think I was right. Don’t get me wrong, Julio Jones is a stud (when healthy, which is another reason not to put all you eggs in one basket), but gaining that one stud (at a position I wasn’t sure was the one that was keeping them from a championship) has cost them dearly as a team. They were 4-12 last year, and are currently 4-6 this year (but atop the NFC South thanks to sucking the least so far), in large part because they can’t stop anyone on defense and they can’t block very well.
So some teams that are chasing a championship do make these big trades. They may not work out for them either.
Hmm… I agree RG3 needs to put up or the Skins need to move on but I’m starting to question Grudens tact and ability to coach his player. He has really crushed his starting quarterback on not one but 3 occasions this week. Is anyone in his circle of trust telling him “Ok Jay, we got it. STFU now because you’re not helping and you’re looking bush league”.
I doubt it. Honestly, this is a pretty big change from the way Gruden was talking just a few months ago, and it sounds to me like a guy that is deliberately framing the public narrative in case it comes to a showdown. Don’t think it will come this year, but next year will be make-or-break.
Here’s another crisp takedown of Griffin’s inability to read defenses, or even make any kind of throw, even his first read. This play is particularly head-scratching, where he’s got every one of his five receiving options wide effing open and doesn’t pull the trigger to any of them, instead scrambling right into a stunting D-lineman.
That dripping noise you hear is the 49ers defense drooling at the thought of this week’s game against Washington.
Wow … that’s staggering. It’s not just that they’re open, it’s that the Bucs lined up in a look, then ran that look, the Skins ran a play specifically designed against that look – no, THE play that every team in the NFL, college, and high school uses against that look – and he just doesn’t throw it.
As a result of this trade and subsequent trades of the picks involved, the Rams got Michael Brockers, Isaiah Pead, Rokevious Watkins, Janoris Jenkins, Alec Ogletree, Stedman Bailey, Zac Stacy and Greg Robinson. In addition, the Rams traded the 2012 1st round pick down from 6th to 14th to Dallas and they drafted Morris Claiborne. As part of that trade, Chicago drafted Alshon Jeffery in round 2. Of this group, only Pead and Watkins have been busts and 7 are starters.
And now the Rams are one the teams being rumored as a possible landing spot for RGIII if he is traded or cut by Washington.
I would definitely put this as one of the best trades ever from the Rams POV.
