Sex is overrated

[Beaucarnea]

@Malacandra

As to the notion that the wedding ring conferred ownership of the vagina on me… goodness me, I was raised better than to think an undertaking to sign away my salary in perpetuity, and half my worldly goods in the event the marriage failed, entitled me to anything, anything at all. I weep for my less enlightened brethren and the women who are cursed with them.

Ah, wit. Oscar Wilde via Malacandra. Careful with that… we all know how his pendulum swung in the end.

@Malacandra

I don’t know whether your view - that if men are suitably attentive to their parter’s needs, they’ll be richly repaid - expresses how you wish things were in your life, or is an accurate representation of how things actually are; if the latter, then so much the better for you and for your lucky man. Call me stubborn though, but I maintain that you’re not as typical as you claim, and that in the main, when a woman spreads for her man or goes down on him, it’s primarily (a) because she generally likes it and (b) happens to feel like it at the time. I must’ve just been unlucky in stumbling across a succession of women for whom (a) and (b) didn’t coincide as often as I liked.

Not quite as easy as all that- I’ve more than a few friends who complain that SO turns on the charm just before he wants to get laid, then turns indifferent until the next time he wants to get laid. None of us want to be *groomed * for sex, we aren’t poodles. But… if a man is kind, somewhat attentive and affectionate, women are far more likely to find themselves physically stimulated and interested in reciprocation. Physical contact, hugs, foot rubs or what have you- that is the stuff of foreplay. Remember how you court a woman? Tell her she is beautiful, recognize a flattering shade of lipstick and such? Keep that up. Stoke the fire. Blow on the coals. (And hell, if you like us, why wouldn’t you offer a kind word or a hug now and then?) We don’t want to have sex with a stranger- we want to make love to the man who loves us.
Well now see there, we’ve all busily proved the OP’s point. Nearly two pages worth. Tom, you still around? We’re still working on this. I still hold fast to my argument that sex and the pursuit of is worth the effort.

[Kalhoun]

@lobstermobster

I’ve been pumped full of SSRIs for years. Lexapro? Sex-a-no! At this point I only use sex for mind control, not for personal enjoyment

Funny you should say this. My girlfriend touted the wonder drug that is Lexapro, telling me it has absolutely no side effects (which I very much demand in an antidepressant). So I tell her that my sex drive is flatlined and what are you talking about no side effects, and she says, “Well I don’t count that as a side effect because I’m not getting any anyway and don’t plan to ever again.” All a matter of perception.

[Dunderman]

@Beaucarnea

Not quite as easy as all that- I’ve more than a few friends who complain that SO turns on the charm just before he wants to get laid, then turns indifferent until the next time he wants to get laid. None of us want to be *groomed * for sex, we aren’t poodles. But… if a man is kind, somewhat attentive and affectionate, women are far more likely to find themselves physically stimulated and interested in reciprocation. Physical contact, hugs, foot rubs or what have you- that is the stuff of foreplay. Remember how you court a woman? Tell her she is beautiful, recognize a flattering shade of lipstick and such? Keep that up. Stoke the fire. Blow on the coals. (And hell, if you like us, why wouldn’t you offer a kind word or a hug now and then?) We don’t want to have sex with a stranger- we want to make love to the man who loves us.

Why doesn’t this go both ways? I’ve heard this said many times - if you want sex you’ve got to be romantic and attentive and intimate and caring - but that still presupposes that sex is something that women have and occasionally give to men out of kindness. I want spontaneous hugs. I want my hair stroked. I want to hear that I’m beautiful.

Shouldn’t sex be a two-person deal (minimum)? Why does it have to be “I’ll give you this so you’ll give me that”?

[Beaucarnea]

@Priceguy

Why doesn’t this go both ways? I’ve heard this said many times - if you want sex you’ve got to be romantic and attentive and intimate and caring - but that still presupposes that sex is something that women have and occasionally give to men out of kindness. I want spontaneous hugs. I want my hair stroked. I want to hear that I’m beautiful.

Shouldn’t sex be a two-person deal (minimum)? Why does it have to be “I’ll give you this so you’ll give me that”?

But we do- women are affectionate by our very nature- we are the nuturers, and this is reinforced by our families, our children, by society. It is easier for us all the way around to be demonstrative and emotive. Nearly all of us are.

In 37 years I have only come across two women who were detached and remote. And both of those women fell in love with equally detached and remote men, so it was win-win. Did you have the misfortune to fall in love with a woman who wasn’t as affectionate as you would have liked?

[Dunderman]

@Beaucarnea

But we do- women are affectionate by our very nature- we are the nuturers, and this is reinforced by our families, our children, by society. It is easier for us all the way around to be demonstrative and emotive. Nearly all of us are.

This is exactly as true as “women are manipulative”. Generalizing about half of humanity doesn’t become OK just because what you’re saying is positive, it just means you’re saying something negative about the other half.

In 37 years I have only come across two women who were detached and remote. And both of those women fell in love with equally detached and remote men, so it was win-win.

I’m not talking about detached or remote. I’m talking about doing the little things that women always want men to do for them (and perfectly rightly so).

Did you have the misfortune to fall in love with a woman who wasn’t as affectionate as you would have liked?

I spent a total of eight years in long-term committed relationships. I can count the number of times I was spontaneously told* that I looked good on the fingers of one hand. And I won’t even need to use all of the fingers. Or the thumb.

[sub]*Told by someone else, that is. My reflection won’t shut up about it.[/sub]

[Beaucarnea]

@Priceguy

This is exactly as true as “women are manipulative”. Generalizing about half of humanity doesn’t become OK just because what you’re saying is positive, it just means you’re saying something negative about the other half.I’m not talking about detached or remote. I’m talking about doing the little things that women always want men to do for them (and perfectly rightly so).I spent a total of eight years in long-term committed relationships. I can count the number of times I was spontaneously told* that I looked good on the fingers of one hand. And I won’t even need to use all of the fingers. Or the thumb.

[sub]*Told by someone else, that is. My reflection won’t shut up about it.[/sub]

I retracted a sweeping statement earlier on another topic in this thread, but I won’t back down on this one. Women are generally (and that measures more than “some”) more emotive and demonstrative. We are expected, allowed, and wired to be. We raise and nuture the young. It is within our natural makeup (all animals) to demonstrate loving behavior. We can debate this one if you like in another thread, or you can watch any crowd and this will play out.

[Dunderman]

@Beaucarnea

We can debate this one if you like in another thread, or you can watch any crowd and this will play out.

I very much doubt I can watch a crowd and get to see a bunch of women stroking their guys’ hair and telling them they’re gorgeous.

[Contrary]

@Priceguy

I very much doubt I can watch a crowd and get to see a bunch of women stroking their guys’ hair and telling them they’re gorgeous.

No but if you are behind me and my husband, I promise you WILL see me patting his glorious booty fairly frequently and telling him how dead sexeh he is.

[Beaucarnea]

@Priceguy

I very much doubt I can watch a crowd and get to see a bunch of women stroking their guys’ hair and telling them they’re gorgeous.

You might- and you will certainly see that women are generally more demonstrative than men.

[Dunderman]

@Beaucarnea

You might- and you will certainly see that women are generally more demonstrative than men.

I haven’t used the word “demonstrative”, nor “emotive”, nor “nurturing”, nor “caring”. All I’ve said is that I’ve seen no evidence, and certainly have no personal experience, that women are more likely to perform random spontaneous acts of affection.

When I’m in love with someone, I want to touch them all the time. And I’m not talking about grabbing tits or smacking ass, I’m talking about touching a hand across a table, holding a foot when lying on the couch, making sure I sit and lie close enough so I can touch them even when we’re doing different things. I want a kiss and a hug when we meet and when we part. And I’m going to say that you’re gorgeous whenever it strikes me, which it tends to do all the time. That’s what I want to experience on the other side as well.

This time, I’m getting thrown out of the Straight Guys Association for sure.

[Stoid]

Some of us prize bliss more than others. I find the feelings of lust and passion that come from a great sexual connection to be utterly blissful, more than anything else I’ve ever done in my life. I’m not talking orgasm, because I can do that for myself and it’s just a moment. I’m talking about the feelings with a partner. That I can’t do alone, and that’s delicious.

And maybe you can only stretch it out to an hour, but when I’m with someone who really rocks my world (it has to be mental/emotional as well as physical, or the physical can never be all that great) I can stretch it out to 8 or 9 hours, no problem. Neck, pet, talk, neck, pet, talk…absolutely nothing better, nothing.

[Voyager]

@Kalhoun

Sex for its own sake, or sex as a component of a love relationship can be very nice indeed. But the really talked-up sex, in my opinion, is power sex. The stuff that pisses off old lovers, gets a boss to give you anything you want, the kind that oppresses a partner, harms a child, or holds someone hostage…that’s the stuff that gets most of the airtime. Hopefully, most of us get the non-power kind.

I think that’s very true. Power used in a relationship in any way is going to cause problems. There is power money also. In a meeting about United Way or something once, one guy objected to the fair share amount being put on a receipt, since he didn’t want his wife to know how much money he made. :rolleyes: I just can’t believe that was a good relationship. I suppose in the old stereotyped power marriages the wifey got a money allowance and the husbandy got a sex allowance. I hope most people have gotten beyond that kind of crap now.

[Malacandra]

@Beaucarnea

Not quite as easy as all that- I’ve more than a few friends who complain that SO turns on the charm just before he wants to get laid, then turns indifferent until the next time he wants to get laid. None of us want to be *groomed * for sex, we aren’t poodles. But… if a man is kind, somewhat attentive and affectionate, women are far more likely to find themselves physically stimulated and interested in reciprocation. Physical contact, hugs, foot rubs or what have you- that is the stuff of foreplay. Remember how you court a woman? Tell her she is beautiful, recognize a flattering shade of lipstick and such? Keep that up. Stoke the fire. Blow on the coals. (And hell, if you like us, why wouldn’t you offer a kind word or a hug now and then?) We don’t want to have sex with a stranger- we want to make love to the man who loves us.

Ah, now you’re beginning to lose my sympathy, because you seem to be under the impression that I don’t do this stuff routinely. A shame. Bye!

(Weren’t you paying attention earlier on when I was talking about being attentive to her needs?)

[Telperien]

@Priceguy

Why doesn’t this go both ways? I’ve heard this said many times - if you want sex you’ve got to be romantic and attentive and intimate and caring - but that still presupposes that sex is something that women have and occasionally give to men out of kindness. I want spontaneous hugs. I want my hair stroked. I want to hear that I’m beautiful.

Shouldn’t sex be a two-person deal (minimum)? Why does it have to be “I’ll give you this so you’ll give me that”?

This would explain why my behavior towards boyfriends seems to surprise them. I am very physically affectionate, and I will tell my love that he’s handsome or beautiful. I guess this doesn’t happen often enough to men.

[Beaucarnea]

@Malacandra

Ah, now you’re beginning to lose my sympathy, because you seem to be under the impression that I don’t do this stuff routinely. A shame. Bye!

(Weren’t you paying attention earlier on when I was talking about being attentive to her needs?)

I’ve made no assumptions about your behavior- I was expounding on a complaint I’ve heard by some girlfriends. Please read my post again, including the 2nd sentence. Some women have complained that their men have a tendency to turn on the charm just before asking for sex.

[eleanorigby]

More thoughts.

First, I don’t think all women are necessarily more demonstrative or caring than men. I think it’s a safe bet they are, but I’m not willing to state so categorically. I don’t think that as a gender, we are socialized to show sexual interest in a man publically at all. We do it indirectly, by slight touches, open body language, eye contact. Men are allowed, IME, to be more physical in their touch. YMMV.

I also think that no one can truly know what goes on inside any other relationship or a marriage–so often, appearances and even more in depth knowledge can be deceiving.

Third, I must be one of that minority that Mal mentions, because I was desperate for my BF’s then husband’s approval. Coming from a fairly cold and remote family, I loved his physicality at first. I post the following in hopes that it might help someone else–that and I need to just get this stuff out of my system. Onine is a terrible father confessor, but I have no plans to run for public office.

He wanted sex, so I made myself available to make him happy. It never occurred to me to think about what I wanted or needed-he liked me! He wanted me! It seemed like such a small thing. I was so young and naive and yes, stupid. He was relentless, demanding and insatiable. Every day, multiple times a day. Risky sex in quasi-public or inappropriate places. He really didn’t touch me except when he wanted sex. He told me he wouldn’t hold my hand (after we got married) because our strides were different and it was painful to him to do so. (?), and that he wasn’t going to just “hold me”. He had held me prior to getting married. This is such a stupid and mundane story–we are almost archetypes. <sigh>

Any time I touched him, it was seen as a signal for sexual advances. He would say that wasn’t true, but his actions belied his words. I strongly believe that he is unable to relate physically to someone else in anything but a sexual way(excepting family and kids, of course).

Oddly enough, if he had just left like that, we might have muddled through (not really, but the last straw is coming up next), except that his focus changed. Now not only did he want sex on his terms and frequency etc, but I had to have an orgasm as well. If I didn’t, somehow this negated his masculinity or something–never been quite clear on this bit, but my lack of orgasm was an affront to him. Now sex was followed by “did you come? Did you come?” Over and over again. There was a time, early on, when I did not know my body and so had no clue sa to the answer to his question.

At first I was truthful-no, not that time, but I had fun or it felt good. Not good enough. So, then I started to lie. It was easier. He seemed satisfied, but that was when the resentment in me started to build. Babies came, with the resultant demands and lack of sleep-no loss of his “need” though. He started watching porn videos (prior to the internet), wanting me to watch with him. Other bits of life intruded: My sisters became ill, and died, but nothing changed-why should his need be shoved aside for anything? I continued to pull away and say no.

Should I have set limits earlier on? You bet. Did I have any clue how to do that-no. I was 24, terrified of repeating my parent’s unhappy marriage and divorce and subsequent remarriage, eager to be Samantha Stevens (Carol Brady was too nerdy for me). Should we have talked about this and come to some kind of compromise? Sure-and I did try, to the best of my abilities then. It took 5 years of therapy for me(in my late 30s) to become assertive in my personal relationships. Too late for us. Patterns were set. We both recognize the destructive dances now, but there is not enough left to stick around for.

Basically, as anyone reading this can figure out, we are fucked unto the Lord when it came to salvaging anything. This is what I mean by baggage. Our sex life is now a mindfield of unvoiced expectations, simmering resentments, past hurts and fear of future ones, apathy, and resignation–on both our parts. Where the second guy comes in here to get me off etc is anyone’s guess. Personally, I put it down to a last desperate attempt to control sex with me. Having no desire to be any puppet master’s toy, I refuse to even consider it.

I have made him out to be a complete dick here–and IMO, in this area, he was and can still be. But he is also a loving father, a good community member and neighbor and willing to lend a hand to anyone in need. He would never hurt me or the kids. I am still deeply angry about all of this (duh), but I colluded in some of it, and even when protesting, did not draw ineradicable lines. I am not, sadly enough, an anomalie. I know of at least two friends who have much the same issues with their husbands. He is bitter about our sex life as well. He truly does not understand my discontent and unhappiness about it. I put that down to some sort of mental astigmatism–he just cannot see it. Perhaps that should be will not see it. A moot point in my book and irrelevant for future plans.

[Beaucarnea]

@eleanorigby

A moot point in my book and irrelevant for future plans.

I can offer my own testimony to this one- after having suffered through some awkward and bitter battles over what was expected, acceptable, and left to be desired in the bedroom- I was far better able to describe and explain what I wanted and needed in my next relationship. I was also able to spot early in a relationship what will and won’t be compatible with my own desires. We live, we learn.
I have been shot down in this thread about as often as I’ve been supported; but my opinion remains unchanged. Sex (for me, and me only) can be a healthy, binding, relaxing pursuit and is worth the jockeying to find it.

Curious about two things: 1) Has anyone participating or reading along in this sometimes embarrassing, sometimes heated conversation found it any easier to explain or describe their own desires or complaints about sex? Just wondering if arguments like these are constructive, or if they are nothing more than an outlet to complain about the opposite sex.

2. Sorry we stole the thread from you, AtomickTom, but please check in long enough to let some of us know if you feel less strongly as you did before, or more strongly that sex and the pursuit of is an exercise in compromising/losing your own personality in order to seal the deal.

[Dunderman]

@Telperien

This would explain why my behavior towards boyfriends seems to surprise them. I am very physically affectionate, and I will tell my love that he’s handsome or beautiful. I guess this doesn’t happen often enough to men.

Why aren’t we already having sex again? Oh, right. The Atlantic.

@eleanorigby

Now sex was followed by “did you come? Did you come?” Over and over again.

I’ve always followed the school of thought that says if you gotta ask, chances are you already know.

He is bitter about our sex life as well. He truly does not understand my discontent and unhappiness about it. I put that down to some sort of mental astigmatism–he just cannot see it. Perhaps that should be will not see it.

Have you considered showing him what you’ve written here, or even writing the same things directly to him?

[Malacandra]

eleanorigby, I’m sure I’ve made my sympathies to you clear before now, and in case I haven’t, I’ll make them clear now. I’m sorry things have been so bad between the two of you and that they’re pretty much beyond fixing now, and I’m not one to excuse anyone of either sex who tries to dragoon an unwilling partner into three-in-a-bed activity. Part of your troubles has been of your own making, but plenty hasn’t (after several years of therapy I’m sure you have a much clearer picture of that than I do) and you haven’t deserved the shit you’ve had to handle.

But I hope you understand that I was thinking in terms of a healthy desire to please, and I’m sure you don’t see yours as healthy or it would have included a lot more taking into account of your own wishes. I am not and never was looking for someone to put out on demand out of sheer terror of not being shown any attention or affection if she didn’t. Somewhere, though, I think there’s a middle ground between what you describe and what I get.

Beaucarnea, I hope I don’t come across as “shooting you down”. At most, I’d say I found myself obliged to rebut your claim that things are all quite simple really. And I get what you’re saying about your female friends wishing their men were more attentive, I really do. What you haven’t done is join the dots between the A of men providing the kind of attention you describe, and the B of women being willing to reciprocate with a cornucopia of sexual delights. You could maybe make out a stronger case if you could cite numerous instances of men becoming more attentive and reaping the promised rewards - but the way you’re telling it, it’s just a case of people bemoaning their current lot and talking about what they would do if things were different. Well, we can all do that - hey, if only my book sold and turned me into the next J K Rowling, I’d buy our church a new steeple, but I think it would be premature for them to stick up a brass plate to me on the strength of that intention.

Sorry. I’m still firmly on the side of “Nice, but nowhere near worth all the hoops you have to jump through.”

[eleanorigby]

Mal–I didn’t think you were expecting that. I think there are other issues for you that are none of my business. I’m sorry I left you that impression that I thought you were like my husband. By two sides of the same coin, I meant the male/female stuff–you can’t have intimacy/sex with your spouse and neither can I–for different reasons, perhaps, but the end result is the same. Just the thought of the sheer work involved to get aroused at this point is enough to make me pick up a good book instead. Sad, but true. So, I’m (we’re) clearly back at square one, with me(and you) thinking sex is overrated and others, not. To each his own. I shared a bit too much here, but I wanted to explain why I think it’s overrated-that’s it not always as simple as “speak up” or “relax”. The “hot fudge sundae” is giving me heartburn…

Priceguy–this topic has been beaten to death by me and my husband. I have gone over and over this with him–in a variety of approaches, including one of the two counselling sessions he shared with me(he stopped coming). He. just. doesn’t. get. it. Or refuses to. Or thinks it’s all me. Or doesn’t care. Or something. I have little interest in knowing the reasons or the motivations at this point. But thanks for listening. If I’m ever free and we’re in the same time zone etc, I’ll buy you a drink.