If you really think the answer to that is “none”, I think you could stand some looking around.
^^^Yeah, what he said! Women in their forties are a hell of a lot of fun for younger guys, at least the smart ones anyway! Not to mention that women in their forties definitely benefit from the enthusiasm, stamina and open mindedness of the younger males…
I used to kinda spook the young guys I worked with–they’d get flirty with me, half joking/half serious. I’d give them a big old grin and tell them “Honey, you’d have a lot of fun but I’d probably cripple you!” Took the cocky ones down a peg, it did… 
Scripts are sometimes fun - but only after there is no doubt of the connection between the actual people. So I understand why you object.
Every consider that this request was for porn by another name - watching, not participating? To even ask you to do this seems to be to be a symptom of some sort of self-hate. Could it be some sort of admission that he’s not making you happy? Gah indeed.
Ok, so some younger guys might want to get horizontal with a 45 year old woman. I, however, would be waaaaay too self-conscious etc for that to work at all! 
and then to be watched on top of that? Hell, I prefer sex in the dark as it is–how prudish of me. 
I don’t know if it indicates self-hate on his part. Could be. I am usually fairly balanced in my weighing of responsibilities involved in my relationships, but I am too close to this to see that. All I see is, “you don’t measure up; you’re vanilla; I’m dissatsified with just us; I want to control all aspects of our sex.” The self-hate could be present and add some light onto a difficult subject, but I cannot enter into it. This is convoluted enough as is!
Quite a lot (try typing milf in google) and count me among them. I’m only 22, but being seduced by an older woman would be heaven.
As for the rest of the women in this thread, I don’t understand how so many end up with assholes or sexually selfish men. For instance, why would you marry a guy who wasn’t gung-ho about eating you out? It’s not the 1950s anymore. If he doesn’t look forward to and dream about giving the man in the boat a spitshine then he has some sort of problem. Not only a problem in that specific and important area, but the sort of thing that will manifest itself in other ways too.
That is NOT a reasonable request. I mean, it *might * be, *if * he had any reason to think that it might be something *you * would want. But I’m guessing he didn’t. And to imply that you’re sexually inadequate because you’re unwilling to participate in something that I’d estimate 90% of humanity would be unwilling to participate in is just, well… mean. It’s not okay.
Also, not entirely on the subject, I’m not a fan of porn either. I’m not morally opposed to it, it just does nothing for me. 1. Sex is not a spectator sport (unless that’s your particular kink!), and 2. most porn is so far removed from actual sex that it’s just not even interesting to me (and I can’t even see how it would be interesting to someone whose particular kink is voyeurism). I don’t begrudge anyone else’s interest, I just don’t really get it. And I think that the problem with you and your husband isn’t that he enjoys porn, it’s that he uses it as a bludgeon to beat you with.
eleanorrigby, I know you’ve said already that you want a divorce. And I know you’ve said that it’s not all your husband’s fault. But for what it’s worth, it appears to me that your marital problems are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay past being about sex, and while we only have “your side” of it, I sincerely hope that you’re able to get to a better place soon.
*Never mind. *
While IANAW, and this is grounds for another thread, I’ll venture a guess. I think it has something to do with women acting as nurses in a relationship and getting gratification from supplying a man’s needs. The needier and more selfish he is, the stronger this can get, up until and past the point where it’s unhealthy.
[hijack] Every so often a Doper creates a thread wishing they didn’t have to waste time, energey, etc. on eating, that they could just take a magic pill or eat the same Kibble-type food every day. Of course, then us gourmands jump in and it becomes clear that everyone experiences flavors and food in different ways, whether for biological or cultural reasons. Sex too, I believe. [/hijack]
Thank God. I was imagining a late night with an axe and a food processor…
yep-I like to help people. I was a sucker for being helpful (got over that), but also he seemed secure and stable and nice. Don’t discount nice.
Not sure it’s related to this thread but that’s a pretty insightful thought Auto.
I’ve basically just been reading the thread since my one post (posted before actually reading the thread, BAD,BAD sinjin) and I’ve come to realize this thread is more about bad relationships than it’s about bad sex. Jeez, if two people don’t even like or respect each other how can you even hope to have good sex? And berating a supposed loved one for not wanting to do it with a stranger while you watch (and what wank off?) is so far down on the evolutionary scale it doesn’t even reach the level of pond scum.
Note: that’s not to say stranger, watching, wanking is bad if you’re both into it. Totally different story.
True enough, but bad sex can happen in good relationships (and good sex, I suppose in bad ones). Since I don’t “do” sex outside of a relationship (even when I was young, hot and single), I tend to focus more on the relational aspects of it all.
What is clear to me, through this thread and in RL is that you must be true to yourself. Trite, but true. Do not consistently deny yourself what you need to please someone else because that will poison your sex and/or your relationship. Seems obvious, but there it is.
Overrated?
We clearly inhabit very different universes.
I have three fundamental needs- sex, chocolate, and the laughter of children ( A good Dopefest can meet all three needs).
Sex is more than some sweaty fumblings. It is breaking free of your skin to truly join with another person-to leave behind the confines of self and be, if only for an instant, a greater being- and then coming back to find yourself more than you were before. Sex is the chance to join with beauty, with glory and to perceive yourself as beautiful and glorious through another’s eyes. It is pleasure, followed by bliss, culminating in an ecstacy so great it can actually be painful. It is the opportunity to leave behind all but the best parts of yourself.
And you call it overrated?
Yes, yes, and many homosexuals prey on children. Many. But the proportion is so minuscule that to draw any kind of a general conclusion that labels homos as predators would be monstrously unjust.
No, I don’t think, to be fair, that the notion of vagina as commodity enters into it - I can perfectly well believe that many women do indeed withhold sex until they get their own way, but in the main that’s not what I seem to have been up against. What I do think is the case, based on my own experience, is that with most women, no-one’s getting laid until they’re good and ready, and whatever they get meanwhile in terms of having their material needs, emotional needs, even sexual needs satisfied is nothing to the point.
I don’t know whether your view - that if men are suitably attentive to their parter’s needs, they’ll be richly repaid - expresses how you wish things were in your life, or is an accurate representation of how things actually are; if the latter, then so much the better for you and for your lucky man. Call me stubborn though, but I maintain that you’re not as typical as you claim, and that in the main, when a woman spreads for her man or goes down on him, it’s primarily (a) because she generally likes it and (b) happens to feel like it at the time. I must’ve just been unlucky in stumbling across a succession of women for whom (a) and (b) didn’t coincide as often as I liked.
As to the notion that the wedding ring conferred ownership of the vagina on me… goodness me, I was raised better than to think an undertaking to sign away my salary in perpetuity, and half my worldly goods in the event the marriage failed, entitled me to anything, anything at all. I weep for my less enlightened brethren and the women who are cursed with them.
Nah. No bitterness there.
Isn’t there a website for people with low sex drives? We talked about this before and I seem to remember a link. And of course, I dreamed of sex last night. :rolleyes: Apparently I am suggestible.
I think that no matter what the outside circumstances, I have a lower drive than my husband and than most people. You can’t force a feeling (well, you can and you end up like me). But if one partner consistently and persistently denies the other, something is very wrong in bed or out of bed. There bears looking into, Malacandra. In no way to I assign blame to either you or your wife-I think it might be more like my situation than I previously thought. Someone upthread said it’s not the frequency, but the incompatibility between partners that causes the difficulty. That is simplistic, but it is a factor. Why not try marital counselling?
Bitter? Good lord no. Merely realistic. For instance, I believe that give and take is important in a relationship, but I don’t believe that a higher level of giving is the key to seeing a higher level of giving from the other party; it’s as likely to be resented as manipulative behaviour, to name but one possible negative reaction. My inner cynic, however, rises to the bait when I see an attempt to portray women as wonderful, giving, empathic creatures the key to unlocking whom is just a little more intimacy, attentiveness and consideration. This isn’t to say that they’re all demons straight from the mouth of Hell, just a suggestion that we shouldn’t idealize.
I don’t say that there aren’t women who base what they’re willing to do sexually based on a desire to please the man they love, but in my experience it’s rare; I’ve only ever known one woman talking about “wanting to please” me, and that was temporary and, on mature consideration, a case of this being in love with being in love that I was talking about. The mindset I’ve seen a lot more of would be more along the lines of “I happen to feel like getting laid. You’re the one I’ve chosen to gratify my present need. Consider yourself lucky” - not that it was ever expressed in such brutal language, of course.
Counselling? No, we have a pretty workable living arrangement, taken all in all, and as to sex, it’s largely true to say that I crossed the “Ah, fuck it” boundary some time ago. Where I am now is quite peaceful really.
This thread has magical powers for those of us who have had a recent slide of not getting any. I read this thread last night at work and some of it must have seeped into the keyboard via the high speed internet connection.
After work I happened to be scratching my nose and my fingers had a distinct scent that hasn’t been there in awhile. It was clearly pussy.
I should be careful, by account of the fact that this morning I am snacking on carrots and ranch dressing.
:: shudder ::
Very true.
I didn’t realize quite how disinterested he was until well after we were married, and had children. And I thought the issues were all mine, that I was ugly or fat (untrue on both counts but that’s what I thought).
And yes, the sexual issues were symptoms of other issues. I suspect my ex would have been just fine never having sex with the exception of having children. He’s totally family oriented and loves all of his kids immensely.
But I had people who would tell me after meeting us that they didn’t realize we were married because of the complete lack of affection or even acknowledgment that I was around from him to me. Very surreal, and something I had to work through post-divorce.
Sex for its own sake, or sex as a component of a love relationship can be very nice indeed. But the really talked-up sex, in my opinion, is power sex. The stuff that pisses off old lovers, gets a boss to give you anything you want, the kind that oppresses a partner, harms a child, or holds someone hostage…that’s the stuff that gets most of the airtime. Hopefully, most of us get the non-power kind.
Whereas all the speculation regarding women acting as caretakers might well be a factor in why women end up with selfish buttmunches I think Occam’s Razor leads us to a far simpler conclusion.
Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, is on their very best behavior at the beginning of a relationship. Shoot, of course we are–it feels so good and it’s so fucking magical to be falling in love with someone what with the endorphins and the great sex and the hormones and the newness, heady brew, that! Problem is that all those chemicals are there because people who get that way with a new person are probably very efficient breeders, not because they come from a long line of great communicators who are fabulous at maintaining relationships.
It’s what happens after the rush wears off that’s important. In a recent thread about computer dating Stoid was taken to task for the confrontational tone of some of her dating ads–see, I totally get it. The faster the artificial rush of FIRST! TWUE! WUV! wears off the faster the building of the REAL relationship will begin–and when you get to a certain age it gets daunting to contemplate having to go through possibly years of gradual erosion before you finally get to meet the person you’re with for real.
Unfortunately, I’ve become increasingly aware that I’m in a minority and that most of the people I know or hear about seem to get stuck in mourning that first fabulous time, get resentful and blame the other person because it’s not magical any more and engage in all kinds of lovely witholding and avoidance behavior because the deep patterns of communication never got laid down properly. See, when you’re WEALLY IN WUV!!11! communication skills aren’t necessary because you just “get” each other (proves the luuuv, dont’cha know) and the exercises that improve communication are often seen as unromantic or too blunt or rude or unsexy because they require you to stop living as your romantic in love persona and be a person to the one you love. Warts, flaws, insecurities, kinks, idiocies and all.
When you get two love junkies together they have an incredibly fabulous few years together, fade out and get divorced–then repeat ad infinitum or until they grow out of it. When you get two realistic communicators together they enjoy the hell out of the honeymoon but don’t engage in “best behavior” (which, to roundaboutly answer the question of why women end up with selfish lovers and men with sexless withholding bitches is that they don’t act like that when they’re on their best behavior–it’s later on the veneer wears off and things go pear shaped) any more than strictly necessary. The communicators learn to address wrongs and hurt feelings and heal them rather than letting them fester on ignored because such ugliness has no place in WomanceWand. These couples are the ones you see in their eighties who’ve been together a lifetime and still would rather be with each other than anyone else.
The real tragedy is when a communicator gets hooked up with a love junkie. It’s like a matter/antimatter reaction because these people are the complete antithesis of each other and there is no way in hell they are going to be able to meet each other’s needs unless somebody does some serious changing. My own point of view, YMMV, is that since love junkies usually do grow out of it (a substantial percentage anyway, by my wholly unscientific estimate) it’s kind of up to the junkie to kick the habit and learn some good skills from the communicator partner. However, if the junkie has the stronger personality (and all that passion, resentment and entitlement can be a pretty powerful force) or is willing to go further than the other (which is more likely for the love junkie, because disillusionment/divorce is the standard pattern for that person’s relationships and it’s easier to be the hero if you can force the other person to be the instigator) the communictor partner, out of love (and maybe just being too damned tired to fight anymore) will give up, resign themselves to a life without intimacy and probably just shut down generally. *
Kindly notice that at no point have I specified a gender assigned to either role because these are universal archetypes IME. Not every relationship will be polarized to the fullest extent, but I think if you look around at the relationships around you the signs will become apparent. If not, let me know so I can rearrange my thinking…
*run on sentence and parentheses abuse duly noted!