Sex is overrated

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
61

And this is the sort of thing that baffles me. I didn’t imply that it’s as “profound as a religious experience” (maybe it is, I wouldn’t know, I’ve never had a religious experience), I simply stated that it feels good. And no, I’m not “confusing” anything, simply because I “understand” sex differently than you do.

Look, you need warm fuzzy feelings to get off. I don’t. That doesn’t mean that either of is “doing it wrong”, or “fooling ourselves”, or are fundamentally mistaken about the nature of sex.

malacandra, whenever I’m contemplating what was unsatisfactory about each of my relationships, I find it productive to keep in mind that the one thing all of my relationships have in common is me.

eleanorrigby, I’m so sorry. I just really don’t know what else to say, except that I hope that things get better for you, and not just on the sex front.

62

One of these responses is not like the other. :dubious:

But that’s OK. Personally I find there’s nothing helps my state of mind more than a large assertion, unsupported by facts, that it’s all my own fault. I keep resolving to stay out of these threads. I really ought to listen to my own advice. What really chaps me at the moment is that it’s pissing down, which made my lunchtime walk much less enjoyable than it should have been. :cool:

63

That’ll be 11.10am on Sunday morning when 'im indoors goes downstairs (via his computer room to switch the machines on) to make me a cup of tea, otherwise he knows perfectly well that at 11am next Sunday, he’ll be on his own.

64

Malacandra, honest-to-god, no offense meant. Aside from the fact that it’s just my standard response to “all women suck” (if it’s any consolation, it’s also my standard response to “all *men * suck”), it’s truly how I approach my relationships.

65

None taken. Nor was I saying that all women suck. I merely assert that, say, Beaucarnea’s claim is true probably of herself, and possibly true of some other women, but not in my experience true of enough as to be the source of comfort that she doubtless intended; indeed, I personally have found it to be true of none, in the last analysis. We can discuss at any length desired how this is my fault, if it’ll amuse the readers. Someone somewhere will probably snark on me for whining (waves) but really, why would I give a shit? :slight_smile:

I believe (pace SmartAleq) that I ought not to dump my wife and kids in order to do something about this. How fortunate for me, then, that temptation has not been put in my way.

66

I hesitated to post personal details because they are so personal. But **eleanorrigby’s **courage is worth imitating.

My first marriage was OK, with the exception of sex. He told me frequently that I only wanted sex to feel loved—and discounted and ignored me saying that I enjoyed it, liked to do it, and wanted lots of it. He found most sexual activities distasteful, and I always got the sense that when he felt like he had to perform oral sex, it was about the most distasteful gross thing he could do. Really, I am pretty lucky to have two children—and that’s only partly a joke.

Once divorced, I went through a piggy stage of finding out that lo and behold others found me desirable and enjoyed getting physical with me. Today I’m married to a dirty monkey ::grin:: and in the last five years I know I’ve had more sex than I did in the sixteen years I was married the first time.

So yes, in my opinion, sex is very important. While the dismal sex was not the reason for our divorce, the complete lack of emotional intimacy was fueled by the equally great lack of physical intimacy.

67

In my opinion, porn is what guys use when they can’t get anything else. It is an unsatisfactory substitute for the real thing.

I think sex is part of a continuum. I almost said, “there’s a continuum that leads to sex”, but that’s not quite what I mean. It’s not just about the sex organs; it’s about touch and pleasure.

Part of it is quite simple: loving touch feels good. A light touch acknowledging your presence feels good. A pat on the back feels good. Hugging someone feels good. Supporting someone when they need it feels good. Sitting in the corner with your friend relaxing against you feels good. Massage feels good. Giving feels good.

If one is lucky, that mutual loving touch extends into the bedroom.

68

Wow. So much to say here. I’m not arguing with anyone here-we all have had our hurts and joys in bed and out. I suppose I could say that I really don’t know if I am extremely sexual or not–I haven’t really had the opportunity to be so. Who knows? If I were lucky like SmartAleq and met a guy who liked intellectual discussion, was at least open minded in his politics, was not wanted for felonies anywhere etc–I may become a nymphomaniac. :dubious: Any improvement in the sex/intimacy area would be nice.

We paint pictures here of our lives, sometimes purposefully, sometimes not. I’ve done a bit of both here (upon rereading). Some clarification might be in order.

He doesn’t consider the stroking of my hair (which BTW, is long, silky and thick) to be demeaning. He considers it unnecessary. It’s the foot massage he thinks is demeaning. (“I’m not going to wait on you.”) But this is a man who also says he wants me to “come and come and come.” He genuinely does not understand that I am not “ready” or even interested in a moment’s notice–this is where porn has just about killed things for us. Those women, are, so why not me? He also resents that we (at times) did not match the national average (I feel like I’m in Woody Allen film sometimes)–you know, the whole, couples have sex 3 times/week nonsense. He believed in that.

I’ve talked myself dry; and cajoled and done other not so nice things: demanded, pouted, withheld sex upon occasion. We’re talking 20 years of marriage here and 7 of off and on dating. I knew what I was getting into (as much as anyone can know anything at 24-I seriously thought that it would get better, that we would settle down and be this nice family. Some of that happened).

I say this to show that it is NOT all his fault. We both have a lot of baggage. But, having been through counselling and learning how to ask for what I want/need, I can say now that I have done so, straightforwardly. Too bad it still didn’t work.

I cannot change him, so I must either work on acceptance or change myself (no) or my circumstances. I am in grad school, and hope to change careers. I would like an amicable divorce sometime soon. He’s agreeable, but money is an issue. So, we rub along (for now), and even have sex upon occasion. It is what I call hygiene sex: the orgasms happen and that release is nice, but it’s not enough. I am greedy–I want more. I deserve more (took me years to be able to say that). I do not know what he is looking for (if anything–lately he is more into porn than anything else. I worry about my sons–I want them to respect and treat women well, AND be well treated by women.)

Here is an example of how poles apart we are: he has plans for us in bed. I have said no to his idea, and now am told that I am “vanilla” in bed. This plan involves bringing another man into our bed and my husband watches. This makes me cringe on many levels. Fantasy is one thing, but this…

I am making him out to be the Bad Guy. He is not, really. He is just an ordinary guy-he wants what he wants. I am more like SmartAleq’s husband than I’d like to admit–my defenses are high, my moods mercurial, my desires fragile. I don’t think it too much to ask, though, if you want to fuck me later, to smile and call me by name when I enter the room. I’m just as guilty of such bad behavior as he is. Bah-this is not good.

Priceguy–I don’t have any words for you. The world is a strange place and those who have plenty sure seem to get more. The essential unfairness of it can be breathtaking, when it isn’t completely pissing you off!

Malacandra–we meet again. Two sides of the same coin. I’m as bitter as you are, believe me. I hate that fear drives so many of my decisions. We are not in the same boat, by any means, but I hope you find your way.

I shouldn’t be posting this. This is like the hot fudge sundae on a diet–it feels good while it lasts, but the guilt and shame last longer.

69

Eh, I like to think that I am not bitter. Cynically resigned - yes, I’ll put my hand up to that. It comes of spending the last eleven or twelve years being disappointed with what’s on offer in the marital bed, continually believing it couldn’t get any worse, being glumly aware that actually it could, and watching it do exactly that. DianaG is right, as far as it goes, that the one common factor in all my relationships with women is me. At least, I am undisputably one common factor; whether there are other common factors is, I think, exactly the point at issue.

Here, you can have the rest of my share; I’ve eaten more than I intended already.

70

I believe you. But from what you’ve written here, it certainly seems differently. This is a guy who refuses to stroke your hair, thinks massaging your feet is demeaning, and believes porn portrays reality. I’m having a hard time seeing his side of the issue.

71

I like this. If only schools would preach atheism as heartily as they do abstinence.

And add me to the ‘different strokes’ category. Just because I think of foie gras all week doesn’t mean you can’t wish for Human Kibble.

72

Thanks for the ongoing support

73

It is clear from this thread that intimacy and orgasm can be either married or divorced from one another, and that only a lucky few of us claim middle ground.

Malacandra, for some women, the vagina is still a commodity. I’m sorry that you have had some stingy partners, but we aren’t all like that, just as all men aren’t hyper focused on owning that vagina after a ring is on the finger. Please ignore my blanket statement, or add a many to it. Many women will respond to intimacy in kind. Many.

eleanor, that is not an ordinary invitation, and don’t let him try to persuade you otherwise. Sure, there are {ordinary} couples who can bring in other partners when both are interested and willing, but his suggestion in the face of your requests for intimacy is akin to throwing gasoline in an open wound. That is a careless, selfish idea. And even though you already know this, the refusal to cave in to that does not make you vanilla. Not in the least.

Please don’t worry about your input in this thread. There is a point to this discussion, and it is necessary to share, to air out some grievances and issues in order to better understand one another.
Here, I’ll give you one of mine, not a complaint, but an embarrassing awkward confession. My ex had a foot fetish to an extreme degree. I once caught him in my closet with my shoes doing something I needn’t elaborate on. I quickly came to realize that my presence in the room wasn’t necessary, and began to resent (and hide) my own feet. Caught hell for that. (I am sure that some of our larger busted women might have had a similar experience with too much focus on a part rather than the whole.) Anyway, it took a few years before I started wearing sandals again, and realized that a) my feet are kind of pretty and* b)* I really like having my feet touched now that the intense focus is gone. So, yeah- I’ve been cajoled, shamed, and belittled for not sharing an interest with a partner. Likely many of us have. Whatever issue someone might describe here, someone else has been through it, or is going through it right now, and may benefit from this discussion.

lobster, we need a special tongue-in-cheek icon or some specific coding for you. I feel like I always get your dry humor, but I’ve seen it push a couple buttons. Maybe like this: <wry> “use[s] sex for mind control, not for personal enjoyment.” </wry>

Stranger, for the most part, we have been attempting to nail down some general complaints about the complications that often accompany sex. There isn’t a blanket solution; there just ain’t. Truth is, orgasms are still more exciting than orbital mechanics, so we will probably continue to pursue them regardless of our confusion.

Yeah.

74

I disagree. I admit I have issues. I have suffered both physically and psychologically, but I still lead a celibate life mostly out of choice. Like most things, there is a wide range in human sexual desire. I am simply on the far left of the sexual desire-o-meter.

Yes, you can live a happy life without sex. I do not recommend it for everyone, but it works for me.

75

Wow and all this time I thought I was just weird. Sex is just…meh… to me. I never actively seek it out, never really think about it and when I’m in a relationship, I do it to please my partner. Now don’t get me wrong, I enjoy it when it’s going on. But afterwards I couldn’t care less if I never got laid again. Of course this causes some problems since even though I will do it for a partner, once or twice a month is about all I can put up with. I also don’t enjoy being intimate. Cuddling, hugging, etc just…ugh… I show my love by giving gifts, making meals, going out to events together. I expect the same unfortunately, so when someone is physically showing their love it completely repulses me. Thinking about it now, I guess there might be something wrong with me…

76

I’m with you here, Priceguy, Mr Rigby strikes me as a uniquely selfish and pretty darned clueless person. Maybe he needs to watch Monty Python’s Meaning Of Life to cop a clue.

[John Cleese] “How about a KISS, boy? Start her off with a nice kiss, before you go STAMPEDING for the clitoris!” [/JC]

How can a man get to any sort of an age without figuring out that women often have to be approached circumspectly. “Softly, softly, catchee monkey.” Porn women act the way they do because they’re PAID to act that way–I bet they’re a whole bunch more fussy when at home with the hubby than their movies would make it seem! Even a man with profound intimacy issues ought to be able to figure out how to fake it in the interests of amicable mating.

I think it’s the hardest thing to overcome in a long term relationship–that “I’m not going to give you anything until you give me something” pattern. I think it happens to everyone during the course of a long relationship–granted for some people it lasts like maybe an afternoon whereas other couples can keep it up for decades, but it seems to be the inevitable course when the pressures of making a life together get too hard. This is where strong and/or compatible sex drives come in very handy, because eventually the biological backpressure drives us together enough to let the endorphins take over. If the urge to get together isn’t stronger than the need to stay apart to make a point things can get really effin’ miserable all around.

When I’m all fussy and touch-me-not Himself has figured out a really fiendish tactic–he gives me a backrub. I’m totally unable to turn it down, he’s very, very good at it and by the time I’ve turned into a puddle of butter he can pretty much do anything he wants with me that doesn’t involve a tractor or lit cigarettes. Well, the tractor could be open to negotiation, depending… :wink:

Oh, and eleanorigby? Just for the record, his idea of a fun time sounds totally horrifying. How in the hell can he figure you’d be up for something that extreme when you can’t trust him to pay attention to your needs when it’s just the two of you? Bringing in another person to a sexual relationship even as a one shot thing requires that the primary relationship be absolutely ROCK solid or there will be some heinous fallout. If he can’t listen to you when you tell him what you need, why would he listen to you in the middle of a scenario when it got too weird for you and you wanted to bail? Worse yet, what if he picked the wrong guy (from HIS standpoint!) the one who treats you like gold and makes you sing the high registers until dawn? Is he really ready for solid empirical proof that he’s a selfish dick played out before his eyes? Somehow I think not.

77

shrug They’re your words (“At this point I only use sex for mind control, not for personal enjoyment,”); I’m just quoting them. If you don’t like what you read, perhaps you should reconsider your attitude toward the whole activity.

Stranger

78

I’m not upset I’m just being glib and messing around with you.

79

I really have nothing to add to this thread (except that I think that sex should be ot overrated or underrated, but rated–in the sense of considered, contemplated, and talked about with your partner. It’s all about the communication!).

I just had to point out that the Google ad at the bottom says “Say No to Wood Pencils”.

:dubious:

80

Now, if we can find a way to have orbital mechanics aid orgasm, we’re all set… :slight_smile:

Other random thoughts:

Love the John Cleese reference! So true. :wink:

I don’t know what Human Kibble is and I’m not sure I want to…

I didn’t get lobstermobster’s mind control reference, so I don’t the get the snark about it.

Malacandra–I have no words for you. I wish I did. I know all about not making an effort because the pain from the lack of payoff is too great to outweigh the chances of success. IOW, The Husband ain’t gonna change his attitude. I should want it as much and as often as he does, regardless of external circumstances like surgery, baby, depression, whatever. (I really am dumping on him here-it feels kind of good. But he got waaaay tired of my occasional bait and switch. In the morning, I’d say let’s have sex tonight, but by the time night came, I’d be too tired. That wasn’t fair or right of me-there, now you know the worst. We’ve done just about every BAD relationship communication method etc out there).

this is going to sound very weird, but I wanted to be me in bed with him. I mean I wanted him to be making love to me–just the two of us. No script, no outside expectations, just us on a journey. This gets back to the intimacy stuff. I never felt like sex celebrated us. I’ve never been able to articulate that before-but I think that’s it. This thread is incredibly painful (I’m crying a bit), but helpful too.

Beau-thanks for sharing your story. I feel less like a museum exhibit. And I am completely with you on the gasoline on the open wound. When he told me that, all I wanted to do was run. The skeery part was that he had it all mapped out. He would find this young guy (like what young guy wants to fuck a 45 year old woman? Shades of Mrs Robinson!), he’d arrange for the kids to be gone (a stranger, doing this-IN MY HOUSE? Never) etc. He was going to check some sex mag for contacts. GAh.

Hey, whatever you’re into, but no and no and no, for me. We did talk about how he boxed me in to a corner with that, but I am left with the feeling that he still thinks it should be a go, but it’s not PC to bring it up. :rolleyes:

And yet, we have a nice home, 3 great kids, a cat, he’s a Republican, I’m a Democrat and yet we can talk politics w/o the venom present here. We are friendly, but not friends. He is leery of even social intimacy–I was caretaker of our social life until I stopped doing so a few years back. It’s not like every day is hell–far from it. Bit bland, but… ok, enough self-indulgence!

Thank you all for posting–as always in good Doper threads, I learn a lot.