Sexual Etiquette

Where do I get a manual for this?

My confession:

Forgive me SwimmingRiddles, for I have sinned. I am a saint no longer.

I feel horrible.

I was out of town on business last week in a town near that of a friend I have known for 15 years. He drove up to see me while I was there. We’ve also had sexual relations for the past 10 years (we see one another about once a year - we live over 2,000 miles away from each other).

This time, after not seeing him for a year and a half, the spark had dimmed considerably. I warmed up to him again after being with him for a few hours. We went out and visited some other people, saw a few sights. We went back to his hotel room. We had sex. It was boring, dull, and uneventful for me.

He has a problem: he is a premature ejaculator. This is something that can be dealt with, and is not usually a disappointment. This time it was a disappointment. He then expected me to work to get him erect again, which I wouldn’t have minded too much if he hadn’t completely ignored my needs and then kept apologizing for the PE and stating that he would make it up to me. As soon as he got hard, he started humping me again. By this time I was totally turned off. I faked an orgasm because the friction in my turned-off body was rather painful and I just wanted him to get off of me. I would have just told him to get off, but he’s really sensitive about the PE thing and his sexual performance. I was afraid he’d cry. (He has cried before, the first time it happened with me.)

He kept going - even after the faked O and after he asked me if I came (and I lied - I feel so terrible) - and finally stopped when he came again.

Score: Him 2
Me 0

We saw each other again the next night. Went out to dinner, had a nice walk, etc. etc. I had a great time. I really enjoy his company. We went back to our hotel. We went to his room, as it was still early. We actually had some foreplay. I got excited, and thought that it would be better; maybe last night was just a bad night.

I was wrong. It was a repeat of the previous night, though he did briefly attempt cunnilingus before he penetrated me. The PE happened again and he did not feel that he needed try it again after the PE (god forbid, I might have an O, and besides, he was too busy trying to firm up his pecker so he could have another O). I had my O by my own manual manipulation, which upset him. And he still kept humping away (very uncomfortable and I found out later that I even bled a little - never had that problem before). When he tried to change positions, I took that as my escape cue.

How do you tell someone with low sexual self-esteem, that he sucks in bed? Is there any nice way to say it? I’ve tried the “touch me this way” tactic, but he resents my input.

And he keeps sending me sexually suggestive responses when I am trying to carry on a normal conversation with him (via email). I have ignored it so far. It’s just not funny at this point. In fact, it makes me feel rather cheap and used.

We have been good friends for 15 years now. I don’t ever want to have sex with him again. How do I turn him down gracefully the next time I see him? (I will be probably see him later this month.) He is so sensitive about his sexual inadequacies, I don’t know how to broach the subject without him getting his feelings hurt.

Has he just been stringing me along all these years for a fuck? Not that I want to marry him or anything, but I do enjoy his company outside of the bedroom. Though I don’t miss him, and I’m not terribly anxious to see him again anytime soon.

Any suggestions/comments/questions?

I’m not sure how to handle this tactfully, and I don’t want to avoid him when he’s here visiting. I want to be honest with him, but don’t want to end things on a bad note.

h_thur, sometimes there is no substitute for the truth.

Then again, I am very very weak, and would put out all the same. But, I would want to say something nice. However, in this case, I don’t think there’s an “easy let down”. I think that the key in this case is to make sure you word what you say in a non-threatening manner. You know, just be careful of your tone, and your posture.

Be honest, be truthful, and be understanding. Just don’t be weak.

In most cases, I adhere to the “honesty is the best policy” mode, but I think maybe in this case it would be extremely difficult to tactfully tell this man you no longer want to sleep with him and the reason is that he’s lousy in bed. In fact, if I read between the lines, I’m seeing that maybe it’s not just that he’s lousy in bed - it seems to me that your relationship has entered into the “good friends” zone, and that you’ve lost the sexual attraction part. I’ve found that if I’m sufficiently attracted to someone, sex is enjoyable even if it my partner’s expertise is lacking.

If I were you, next time we were planning a get together I would tell him something along the lines of “Y’know, I just don’t feel right about the sex anymore. It’s not the right thing for me to do at this point in my life.” If he pushes, tell him that once a year sex is no longer attractive to you, or that you have a boyfriend now and you’d feel you’re cheating if you slept with another man.

For me at least, the first excuse isn’t quite lying. Surprisingly enough I’ve found that the appeal of the one night stand - something that I had no problem with when I was in my early 20’s - is just not there anymore. I’m simply not interested in such a casual relationship at this point in my life, even if I wasn’t involved in a serious relationship. Perhaps you could use some variation of that to gently tell him that you’d like to stay friends but sex is out of the question.

You can’t. You want to know why? People have a very hard time believing painful truths.

I was in this exact situation. Somehow, the fact that HE couldn’t give me an orgasm became MY fault, because every other woman he’d ever been with had them ALL the time, and he wasn’t doing anything different with me. This is the guy who felt like Adonis if he gave me a thirty-second attempt at cunnilingus. He expected all women to get off through penetration alone. Given that his past sexual history was littered with virgins, one-night stands, and one three-month relationship that ended when she started “getting frustrated with everything” for unknown reasons, I’m not surprised. I guarantee you that every woman he’d been with before me was faking it regularly.

A hint to women everywhere. PLEASE don’t fake it. What does it help? You haven’t gotten off, the guy you’re with thinks he’s doing everything right, and when you break up (and you WILL, because if you know what you’re missing even the best relationships will disintegrate over time due to bad sex) he’s ruined for other women, because he thinks THEY’RE the ones at fault, not him. This guy and I were best friends when we got together, and it was disappointing, to say the least, to realize that it was never going to work out. But he’d been trained to think that he was doing everything right, so of course when I didn’t lie to him like everyone else did, it became MY problem. And I KNEW it wasn’t my problem…I come every time, if the guy has even the slightest clue what he’s doing, or even if he doesn’t, if he does it long enough.

So no, the guy will NEVER know he’s bad in bed, because even if you tell him, in the nicest way possible (my way was putting his hand in the right place, and when he didn’t keep it up, putting MY hand in the right place, which was apparently some sort of egregious wrong), he’ll never listen. If he hasn’t listened before when you tell him what you like, what makes you expect he’ll listen now?

Drop him like a hot potato and find someone who is at least willing to work with you.

Tell him you’re a “Born Again Virgin”.

Which I’m not. :wink:

I can’t understand why a guy would find the a woman giving herself a bit of help to climax anything less than extremely erotic. In fact, upon occasion, I’ve encouraged it.

Point in fact: Homeboy is a poor-quality sex partner if he isn’t being attentive to your needs, h_thur. Dump him and buy a Sybian. If it works as good as it appears to in the movies, please let me know so I can buy one to keep around the house for special occasions.

>>>> A hint to women everywhere. PLEASE don’t fake it. What does it help? <<<<

Hear hear! from the Men’s side.

I find that sex gets better as you get to know a partner (though, okay, the excitement and novelty of a new relationship is pretty intoxicating). Don’t cheat yourself and your partner of the opportunity to make it better.

I mean, c’mon, it’s a duet, not a pole vault.

That said, sometimes accomodations must be made for mood and other factors. Still, I love it when a good precedent is set early on. It makes it easier for us to accept a graceful demurrer later.

No one likes being misled.

Isn’t 10 years long enough to get to know your partner? The sex was good the first 3 years. Then the PE happened. I was flexible, I worked with him on that. Then it steadily got worse, with the rare good sex every now and then. This last time was just intolerable. It’s not going to get better. I give up.

Thank you Drain Bead. Actually this guy is the only man I have ever faked it with. With the others, I have been honest. And I feel horrible guilt when I do fake it with him.

Wise Athena - I think you hit the nail on the head. (Crossing my fingers) I just hope it goes smoothly when I tell him. Thanks Mr. Cynical for the reminder on body language and tone. I’ll try very hard not to stiffen or recoil when he hugs me next time I see him.

SaxFace - I love the born again virgin line. :smiley: Though, I was thinking more along the lines of telling him I was reinstating my celibacy clause.

Being an attractive, intelligent, charming guy, I constantly deal with women wanting to have sex with me whom I’m just not attracted to or interested in.

<waits for the laughter to die down>

Ok, ok. :smiley: But I have dealt with this situation a few times. My usual method is feign extreme obtuseness (I’m very good at this, given my natural talents). I simply do not get the fact that the person is sexually interested in me. Assuming I like the person otherwise, I’ll continue to talk with them as friends, but the sexual references just seem to go right over my head. A liberal use of {{{ blush }}} helps, because it acknowleges a compliment without necessarily having to return it in kind (I also {{{ blush }}} a lot when I’m really flirting, so if I ever flirt with any of you, don’t think that I’m trying to warn you off). Sooner or later the person will get the hint and stop, or at least tone things down, without me ever having to say an unkind word.

Remember, sex can never be assumed, not even between established lovers. Each act is separately negotiated and consented to by both (or all) parties. Simply failing to consent (or understanding the request) should be a sufficient signal. One never has an obligation to explain one’s reasons for not consenting to sex.

…you haven’t seen me do it :p.

Anyways. h_thur, come on girl, stand up for yourself. This guys is a stroke, in all the wrong directions. You don’t want him to know he *sucked royally in the sack? That doesn’t do one lick of good. Now, I’m in the camp that the relationship ain’t worth a shit anymore, and if he cared about you he’d show it in bed. The fact he’s not means that its time to end anything physical, he just isn’t doing you any favors. But, don’t do the stupid chick thing and find a excuse or a lie to get out of it. Tell him he’s patheitc in bed, and tell him that he isn’t expressing anything resembling compassion for your feelings. Even if you have no desire to have sex, you owe him the honesty of the situation. Also maybe you’ll do him a favor, and he’ll be able to have some gratifying sex in the future. He might be hurt, and cry, but tough shit. He has a problem, and he’s not doing what it takes to either fix it, or cope with it. As such keeping him in the dark is doing infinately more harm than good.

Be honest, and blunt! Tell him that he’s not being considerate in bed, and as a result he’s not getting any sex from you again. Maybe that honesty will wake him up to the fact that he’d better be less selfish especially with the PE. Now, you don’t need to blame it on the PE, especially since you said it wasn’t really a problem before, and I suspect it really isn’t now. The problem is emotional and mental, he’s not there for you, and he needs to understand there is more to sex than the old in-out-in-out.

Now, suppose he cries like a baby. It’ll be very hard, and you’ll feel terrible about it. But that fact is that a woman is going to tell him eventually if he doesn’t change his ways. I think it’d be the most credible, and most productive coming from someone he can trust and believe. At least you’re the type of lover who will be there for him, and comfort him. Maybe explain what things he can do to improve in the future.

Suppose he does the cowardly thing, and blames you and accuses you. If he gets hostile and defensive. He clearly isn’t a friend worth keeping, and he’s just now showing his true colors. An attitude problem like that could be why he is so inconsiderate in bed. Be honest, how much of a friend are you losing if he can’t matuely discuss this problem?

use the preview…use the preview…

I don’t know that I’d show much remorse for a partner that has done nothing in the past seven years to remedy what may have been a problem but is now obviously an excuse. The fact that he can’t deal with you helping yourself get off (yet is all for him getting off twice) seems to be a clear indication of his selfishness.

Just pray that word hasn’t gotten out that men can fake PE and still get sympathy (and sex) from women for almost a decade.

I read in masters & johnson that a man’s first sexual experiences set for life his penis’s behavior. They looked at men whose first sexual experiences were with hookers, who are pressed for time, ‘hurry up!’, & they became premature ejaculators. But men who did it in the context of a loving patient relationship were able to have a more normal sexuality.

Guess it shows with technique too?

It sounds to me like he is using his low self-esteem as a tool to continue getting sex without having to work at improving it.

If you don’t like having sex with him, then just stop. If/when he asks why, don’t tell him it is because he isn’t any good just tell him you aren’t comfortable with it anymore.

If you tell him it isn’t any good, he is just going to want to show you how he has improved.

If he doesn’t respond well to your no, then you may have to reevaluate what kind of person you have as a friend.

It sounds like I offended you, h_thur. Sorry, I didn’t mean to. I was addressing Drain Bead’s “Women Everywhere” , not you specifically. (“A hint to women everywhere. PLEASE don’t fake it.”)

When I said ‘duet, not pole vault’ I meant that good sex is a matter of interaction, not prowess. I didn’t mean to imply you shared any fault. Clearly, he thinks he’s “got his license” and is therefore fully qualified. I consider it a eternal mystery, and myself a mere student (sometimes a little too literally)

If it’s a conversation, then he’s been talking about only himself, for a while now. I have particularly little respect for guys who don’t ‘go down’ or think they’re a hero for a few haphazard licks that wouldn’t take the chocolate off a bon bon. They’re missing the best part.

Indeed while I don’t think Masters and Johnson has held up well in contemporary academic literature, I think there is some relationship between his outlook and his performance. There’s definitely a strong psych component in most PE. It may even be a passive-aggressive act in some cases.

If you find a graceful way out, and stay friends, I hope you’ll consider letting him know how disappointed you were. That’s what a friend should do, don’t you think?

I, on the other hand, was profoundly impressed by The Hite Report as a pre-teen – maybe I’m the one who’s twisted

I am very, very glad that I simply can not relate to having such a ridiculously selfish sexual partner. Of course, I’ve only had one, so I don’t have a wide variety of experience there. And you know, I don’t mind.
Omni, you give sound advice that I honestly want to echo–the one thing is, h_thur has a very long-standing friendship with this guy. Being that blunt–“You suck in bed! Could you be any more selfish?”–will almost certainly destroy the friendship. That’s a very difficult proposition–we like our friends, especially ones we’ve had for a long time, and being so frank can feel cruel. If this was a one-night stand or some random guy she’d known for a few months/weeks, I’d say yes…tell the guy off. But…well, h_thur, you need to decide what you want to do.

Do you want to treat your friend gently? Spare his feelings? Be obtuse. Do you want him to know the truth, and are you willing to accept the likely end of the friendship? Tell him. Painful as it would be for you both, I’d suggest being honest. You may regret the immediate effect, but in the long term, if will be best for you both, even if he chooses to ignore what you’ve told him.

I had the difficult task of telling a best friend and former roommate that I had concerns about a relationship she was in. She asked, and I just couldn’t lie. It destroyed our friendship, but at least I told her the truth. I only can hope she heard it.

And that is really all you can hope from him.

honestly, just tell the truth. if it hurts, too bad, guys gotta learn somehow, sometime. As a man, i would want to hear it flat out. Whether it’s becuase i believe i am understanding or not, i feel that if women would stand up for themselves in this area of life they wouldn’t have as many problems. I’ve known my friends to go through this. The guy i’m friends with tells me his side of how good it was for him, or how she was ok, and he rocked her world, and then she’ll tell me that she had to fake it, and it hurt her (physically), and he’s got low self esteem so she doesn’t want to say anything. If you don’t tell him, it’s not helping any at all, it only forces him to continue. Perhaps you might want to sit him down at an apropriate time when you’re alone, and bring this up, discuss it, and perhaps look for ways to improve it (if you really want to with him). Done tactfully, he may still be hurt, (but who wouldn’t?) though he’ll know that you believe something can be done.
In my relationships, i’ve always asked to be told everything, no matter what it was, and it helps, my performance according to my girlfriend is better. I have no problems admitting whether i’m good or not, becuase it’s the least of life’s concerns. (There’s always the good stroke off).
Be honest, you may feel a great weight lifted, and he may finally become somewhat enlightened.

Ruff, as abrasive as I am, I agree that tact is necessary, but I hope the urgency of my tone make it clear to h_thur that she can not afford to beat around the bush and share blame or mitigate the truth.

And regardless of how long she’s had the friendship, if the guys turns out to be a asshole and doesn’t respect her on this issue, its not going to be any loss.

Thank you all for your posts. I need to tell him, if only so that he might one day satisfy another woman, so that he might grow sexually. And I feel deceitful for faking orgasm. As a friend, I owe him the truth.

[pep talk]Hmmm ~ finding the words to tell him. I have the time. I have good ideas courtesy of all of you. I am a writer. I can do it, nicely, gently.[/pep talk]

Thank You All!

  • Celibate h_thur

You’re very welcome, and the best of luck to you. :slight_smile: