Sexual Rejection/Making the First Move--Harder on Men or Women?

In My Humble Opinion
21

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
But isn’t there a lot of residue, Diana?

Example 1: Woman, age 30, professional degree, owns her home, has served in military, yadda. “I expect a man to hold doors for me.”

Example 2: My niece. A “happy surprise” for her folks, who had three boys. She became the darling of the family. The dressed her to the nines, fawned over how pretty she was etc. Now she’s in her twenties and you can bet she knows how to use her wiles. That girl has claws.

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Please explain to me how either of these examples shows a person whose *only * power is vaginal gatekeeping?

22

[QUOTE=DianaG]
Please explain to me how either of these examples shows a person whose *only * power is vaginal gatekeeping?
[/QUOTE]

In the first example, I meant to show that there are women who have many claims to power (being self-sufficient etc.) but who still fall back on old norms, expecting a man to be chivalrous.

In the second example, I meant to show that my niece discovered a power early on and has been exploiting it ever since.

I’m not saying they have only that power; both should realize that there are other ways of getting what they need and want. But in some cases, it’s the only power they need to get what they want, if the man is willing to go along with it and other skills atrophy.

And that goes back to the question of men rejecting a sexual advance. I think if my niece were rejected like this, she’d be shocked. She’s used to getting her way. And I think, ‘Shame on her parents or our society for reinforcing that attitude.’

But there it is…because a wiggle and a wink got her where she wanted, what’s her backup plan? Playing devil’s advocate, time will catch up to her and she will not have developed any other skills. Younger, firmer bodies come along and displace the previous crop.

23

[QUOTE=Cat Fight]
Maybe she just really, really wanted to get laid. A woman actually wanting to have sex rather than using it as a bargaining chip has got to fit into the equation somewhere. I know young, beautiful, intelligent women who’ve had guys reject sex, and while I don’t doubt their egos were bruised, their number one complaint is that they didn’t get their rocks off (sure they rubbed one out, but the build up’s not the same).

I do think there is truth to your take on lev’s post.
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Oh, she absolutely wanted to get laid. HOWEVER…

Later on we got serious and wanted to live together. As we were talking about how we’d divide expenses, we hit an impasse. Frankly I was hurting financially but the move was going to put extra burdens on me anyway (much longer drive to work etc.). She said I should pay more because (and I quote) “I give you nookie.”

It may not start out as a power play but it often ends up that way, IMO.

24

[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
This kind of statement just floors me. lobotomy’s explanation of culturalized gender roles notwithstanding, do you really believe this is true for the average woman in the U.S.? The notion that my sexuality has anything to do with exerting power and control over other people is absurd and, frankly, insulting.
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Well, I said I was generalizing so of course I wasn’t talking about you. Everyone who’s been on the Dope more than a day knows that generalizations never apply to Dopers.

25

double post

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I think quite a few answers can be found in the thread linked by the OP. Posters questioning the attractiveness of the woman in questions, others questioning her morals.

I thought this observation from mswas was particularly apt

If a woman asks for sex early on, then, my god, who else is she propositioning? And how often?

27

[QUOTE=Cat Fight]
I think quite a few answers can be found in the thread linked by the OP. Posters questioning the attractiveness of the woman in questions, others questioning her morals.

I thought this observation from mswas was particularly apt

If a woman asks for sex early on, then, my god, who else is she propositioning? And how often?
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OR…

She never takes (nor expects) “No” for an answer, and gave him shit for it. It could be either. But my reason might explain why she’s a single mom as well. I wouldn’t want to be married to someone that demanding.

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[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
This kind of statement just floors me. lobotomy’s explanation of culturalized gender roles notwithstanding, do you really believe this is true for the average woman in the U.S.? The notion that my sexuality has anything to do with exerting power and control over other people is absurd and, frankly, insulting.

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You are looking at lob’s explanation with an estrogen filter, and I understand your POV that you would feel insulted by this explanation, but the please try to understand our (testosterone filtered) POV…his explanation really does feel that way for most men, in general. He said it not to be insulting towards women, but is really trying to state how men feel about it. Lev as well, too.

29

[QUOTE=kunilou]
It should be noted that being rejected for anything – sex, a mortgage, a job – sucks no matter whether you happen to be male or female.

It’s all in how you deal with it.
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Not all these are equal in suckitude though.

30

[QUOTE=Yeticus Rex]
You are looking at lob’s explanation with an estrogen filter, and I understand your POV that you would feel insulted by this explanation, but the please try to understand our (testosterone filtered) POV…his explanation really does feel that way for most men, in general. He said it not to be insulting towards women, but is really trying to state how men feel about it. Lev as well, too.
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Fair enough. I’m not trying to be deliberately dense or overly sensitive, I’d just like to explore this POV a little more and try to understand it.

So you guys really feel that women have power by withholding (or granting) sex? I mean, what power IS that, really? Are you talking about women exchanging sex for other favors, like material possessions? In that case, what power do they really have except the power that men in those relationships give them? Are men really so desperate for sex that they’re willing to be exploited emotionally and financially in order to get it? It seems to be there must be some underlying emotional need (from the man’s perspective) that would result in him tolerating that shit… just sex doesn’t seem like it would be worth it.

I certainly am aware of the manipulative female archetype and I know she exists, but what I’ve never understood is why men tolerate it. I can see how the rejected woman may feel disempowered, but I still think that’s a very small minority of women. I think rejection probably hurts in different ways from either POV.

31

[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
Fair enough. I’m not trying to be deliberately dense or overly sensitive, I’d just like to explore this POV a little more and try to understand it.
[/QUOTE]

I sure never meant to offend anybody. I figured our female dopers know that I mean a lot of men feel this way about a lot of women, but there are certainly exceptions out there, male and female. Apologies if I offended.

[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
So you guys really feel that women have power by withholding (or granting) sex? I mean, what power IS that, really? Are you talking about women exchanging sex for other favors, like material possessions? In that case, what power do they really have except the power that men in those relationships give them? Are men really so desperate for sex that they’re willing to be exploited emotionally and financially in order to get it? It seems to be there must be some underlying emotional need (from the man’s perspective) that would result in him tolerating that shit… just sex doesn’t seem like it would be worth it.

I certainly am aware of the manipulative female archetype and I know she exists, but what I’ve never understood is why men tolerate it. I can see how the rejected woman may feel disempowered, but I still think that’s a very small minority of women. I think rejection probably hurts in different ways from either POV.
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A guy I know once said to me that he told his wife, “I don’t ever get sex from you unless I buy you a car or a house or something.”

My last girlfriend withheld sex when she couldn’t get unpissed—about a month before we broke up. It was crystal clear that if she didn’t get her way, the nookie bar was closed.

Olive, when you say you can’t see how “just sex” would drive men to these extents, it’s clear to me that you’re a woman. Too bad we can’t let women experience a male orgasm for themselves. But okay, you know how those bighorn sheep will get out there and bash each other’s brains for a chance to mate…?

OK, another example. A friend of mine told me that one night his wife didn’t want to have sex because she was reading a really good book in bed. He said, “Look, all you have to do is lay there.” Finally she said ok, so he nailed her while she read her book. I bet almost every guy has a story like this.

We must get so much more out of it than you ladies. Larry Miller said, essentially, that the difference between the male sex drive and the female sex drive is like the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing it.

Another example: I was talking to some guys one day about a case we’d heard of, where a pedophile had made a suggestion to the judge: he didn’t want to go to jail again, so he was volunteering for castration. I asked the guys: “If you had to choose between getting your arm cut off and losing that equipment, which would you choose?” Nobody answered. That was 1992; I’ll let you know if they get back to me.

Being a woman, you might think that had to do with their personal identity, like how women feel less feminine if they have to have a mastectomy. True, but the BIG issue is no more squirty squirt feeling.

Another example: “I felt sorry for myself because I had no women, till I met a man who had no hands.” ~Playboy joke.

I digress. IIRC Helen Fisher wrote that across cultures, men always bring gifts to women in the hopes of getting sex in exchange. Here, it’s the old box of chocolates and dinner. In Africa, it might be the choicest fish from the day’s catch. Maybe there’s something deep in our genes that makes a man say, “I will feed you; I will protect you. Then, I will bone you. RIGHT?”

32

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63]
IOlive, when you say you can’t see how “just sex” would drive men to these extents, it’s clear to me that you’re a woman. Too bad we can’t let women experience a male orgasm for themselves.

<snip>

We must get so much more out of it than you ladies.
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Seriously? I mean… seriously?

33

[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
Fair enough. I’m not trying to be deliberately dense or overly sensitive, I’d just like to explore this POV a little more and try to understand it.

So you guys really feel that women have power by withholding (or granting) sex? I mean, what power IS that, really? Are you talking about women exchanging sex for other favors, like material possessions? In that case, what power do they really have except the power that men in those relationships give them? Are men really so desperate for sex that they’re willing to be exploited emotionally and financially in order to get it? It seems to be there must be some underlying emotional need (from the man’s perspective) that would result in him tolerating that shit… just sex doesn’t seem like it would be worth it.
[/QUOTE]
“Just sex.” There’s the key to understanding.

It is not “just sex.”

Maybe it’s different for women. But we men are, to put it bluntly, permanently horny. And we are visually-excited creatures.

Most men have social skills, do fine in the interpersonal game, and make out well in time. They find partners. They find marriage and a home. Let me try to convey what this game is like for a man who does not have such skills.

Imagine being permanently hungry, always having a growling in your stomach. You can get a small amount of food most days, enough to tide you over and keep you going. But it is never enough, and always at the back of your mind, easily woken by any passing breeze or thought or image, is your hunger.

However, as you go about your day, you pass displays of food. Enticing smells draw your attention. There are melons, steaks, cakes, soups, every possible delicacy you can imagine, in wild profusion. But… everything is locked up behind glass doors or wire cages. You are poor; you do not have the cash to buy your way past those doors. Because of your difficulty in ‘reading’ people, you can’t usually tell whether anyone is offering food as an honest-to-goodness gift.

Now imagine that the owners of some of these food displays offer a taste. They’re very obvious about it; even you can pick up the signals. You accept. The food is very good.

They offer a little more… but would you do this favour for me first? Sure, you say. It’s no problem, just a minor trip to the market.

But it sets a pattern. The food is not to be given freely, and instead of discovering what gift you have that can be equally enjoyed in exchange, you work to earn tidbits grudgingly given.

The favours get bigger and more complicated. You lose your power, and you always hope that you’ll be worthy enough each night when you come home, so that you get your tidbit.

Replace ‘food’ by ‘sex’ and you have the nightmare some men live.

I can totally understand why some men prostitute themselves for sex, and why others try to control women so that they can ensure a supply of sex. But those paths aren’t open to gentlemen. Gentlemen must ignore those desires and just go about their days as if they didn’t exist. They must deal honestly and openly with everyone they meet, and if they are attracted to them, they suppress it until the meeting or class or job is done.

And woe betide the gentleman who cannot tell whether there is interest in return.

34

[QUOTE=DianaG]
Seriously? I mean… seriously?
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I mean that’s so not what Tiresias said.

Anyway, maybe guys want it more, but till they can have multiple orgasms, I doubt they’re experiencing as much pleasure.

35

Never been a female, but my guess is that sex for us males is kinda like popcorn: the actual consumption thereof is nearly always…decent and kinda nice, but it’s the appetite and anticipation that really excels beyond other experiences.

Or maybe not everyone has that reaction to the smell of freshly popped popcorn, in which case my analogy kinda falls flat… could anything taste as good as the promise provided by the smell of popcorn?

Sex can be great. Sex can be spectacular. Nothing short of the opportunity of simultaneously being both the God and the Devil and doing everything powerful and delicious and satisfying and soul-satisfying and saving every kitten and making the world safe for democracy and being a successfully nurturant parent and a dynamic hero and writing 11 symphonies that would put Beethoven Tchaikovsky and Wagner to shame while developing a cure for cancer and getting the world’s nicest back rub and tripping on the world’s very best acid and casually experiencing not only life after death but also the full individual lives of everyone and everything that has ever lived for al the joy and triumph contained within, plus some nice hot salsa and crisp tortilla chips on the side, could live up to the billing that male sexuality gives to the possibility of sex.

An appetite-experience that we hafta get thru about 47 times a day, dammit.

Male sexuality is seriously stupid.

36

Any guy who thinks the female orgasm is nothing to write home about should probably start pondering some of the non-sociopolitical reasons that he’s not getting laid.

37

[QUOTE=DianaG]
Any guy who thinks the female orgasm is nothing to write home about should probably start pondering some of the non-sociopolitical reasons that he’s not getting laid.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, I’m aware of Tiresias, and have no doubt that the female orgasm is a thing of lasting beauty. But my impression (mostly from books with titles like Light Her Fire admittedly) is that women and men do not become excited for the same reasons and in the same way.

38

[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
I certainly am aware of the manipulative female archetype and I know she exists, but what I’ve never understood is why men tolerate it.
[/QUOTE]

Well, because she gives us nookie (As long as we continue doing exactly what she wants…) :wink:

[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
Any guy who thinks the female orgasm is nothing to write home about should probably start pondering some of the non-sociopolitical reasons that he’s not getting laid.
[/QUOTE]

This, I can definitely agree with.

39

[QUOTE=DianaG]
Any guy who thinks the female orgasm is nothing to write home about should probably start pondering some of the non-sociopolitical reasons that he’s not getting laid.
[/QUOTE]

There were two related, hilarious stories in National Lampoon back in the 1970s or 1980s, 1) My Penis, and 2) My Vagina. The premise of these was that a person woke up one morning with the wrong equipment. Girl goes to bed, wakes up with a penis; boy goes to bed, wakes up with a vagina. Hilarity ensues.

In “My Vagina,” the guy writes about orgasms that they’re a lot smaller than guy orgasms, but you can have lots and lots of them. He rides his motorcycle to high school but he can’t stop because the vibrations are just right and he’s making doughnuts in the parking lot, revving the engine till it almost blows up.

In “My Penis,” the girl write about masturbating and says the sperm is flying over and you don’t care about anything at all, not even the mess all that sperm is making on the curtains her grandma made for her.

If you can find reprints somewhere, oh…my…God…

On a more scientific note, isn’t it generally accepted that in our specie (and probably other primates, many mammals) that women are choosy as hell because they only have a finite number of eggs and childbearing years etc., whereas men are happy to spread their seed anywhere and everywhere? Women are going to make men jump through some hoops to get the best genes for their offspring.

40

Have you tried talking to *women * to learn about the female orgasm, or are you pretty sure you got everything you need to know from a couple of comedy articles most likely written by men?

Look, I *believe * you that your orgasm is a wondrous thing. Why do you doubt me?

On a more scientific note, I’ve always wondered why it’s assumed that women wouldn’t naturally want to fuck as many men as they could in order to get the best genes for their offspring. Best swimmers win!!!