I just don’t see the evidence for why female orgasms would be like guy orgasms, but except for smaller. Couldn’t you just as easily say they’re just like guy orgasms but bigger?
Hmm. Okay, I’m a guy, I haven’t hit my mid-20s yet, and I’ve only had one girlfriend in my life so I’m not the most experienced tool in the shed. But my one girlfriend shifted over the course of our relationship from open to shut in the area of sex.
It was a long-distance relationship, so we’d see each other once a monthish and invariably get it on in some way shape or form during these visits. At the beginning of the relationship, everything was great. She initiated, I initiated, everybody was happy.
About a year into the relationship she moved further away for six months, far enough away that I could only visit her once over those six months. And during that time it went from a mutual interest in sex to her saying “you’re only dating me for the sex” and her taking on a more “gatekeeper” role. I thought it was a natural result of a long-lasting relationship. You hit dry spells, maybe she doesn’t want it as much. Blah blah blah.
As it turns out, she was still very interested in initiating sex and having sex. Just…uh…not with me. 
So when she turned into the “sexual gatekeeper” stereotype, it wasn’t that she didn’t want to have sex: she just didn’t want to have sex with ME, which is a big difference.
Do I think all women will be “sexual gatekeepers?” No. Will I take it if they are? Hell no. I want to have a relationship where both partners are interested in it, not one where I have to beg for it.
And for the record, while it hits me hard when I’m rejected by a woman for a date or whatever, it hits me harder when I’m rejected by my girlfriend for sex. You shouldn’t have to fear rejection from your SO, in my opinion.
For fuck’s sake!.
OK, look, yeah I have spoken to some women, done some reading up, etc. Diana, I don’t know why you assume that I don’t think your orgasms are wondrous things. When I posted, it was in reply to Eleanor’s question about why men do XYZ to get a woman, because it’s “just sex.” I wasn’t knocking the female orgasm; I was exalting the male. You want to know why men go through contortions? I’m telling you. You want to exalt the female orgasm? Knock yourself out.
In re: why women don’t sleep with as many men as they can, I don’t know that they don’t.
Yeah, but by that rationale, guys could just masturbate a lot…obviously it’s more than just the orgasm.
Plus, the female orgasm is really hard to get through a guy, no offense. It’s not like going out and banging a lot of guys is necessarily going to get you anything except chafed genitals.
And women can’t masturbate? I must not be following you here. Would we prefer a live woman? Absolutely. But I think you’re hitting on something at the crotch—I mean, crux—of the matter. A man meets a sexually attractive woman and he’s gonna spank it for relief; a woman meets a sexually attractive guy and she seems to be much more able to brush it off.
Or as the old joke goes, “What’s the difference between light and hard?” (A man can sleep with a light on).
What is it about the female orgasm that guys don’t get? Extrapolating from a small sample (me), hey, show me where you’d like me to lick it, tell me where to rub it, etc. I think I speak for a lot of guys when I say that nothing gets us off so much as seeing the woman get off.
So maybe it’s less about the orgasm itself, but more about needing to?
I’m not even sure myself…all I know is that I have a really, really hard time getting off with a guy…plus getting super dependent on a vibrator probably hasn’t helped matters too much. But for some reason things that work when I do them alone didn’t always work when a guy did them. Weird wiring, maybe?
Maybe you could think of it like puking…but in a good way. Your body has something it urges you to release. Once you’ve released it, you’re normal, feel very good and mellow. Till it builds up in your body again the next day.
As for your situation, I heard a long time ago (1982?) that women who use vibrators spoil themselves for men because our penises don’t vibrate. But since then I’ve heard women say that the vibrator and the real thing are both good, but in different ways, and they don’t negate each other’s appeal.
I would say that if a guy really likes you, he’s probably going to be a good student. Sometimes when people mention “quality time,” I think, ‘Oh, we’re naked?’ Just tell him what you like. E.g. “Baby, it drives me crazy when you suck on my nipples,” or whatever. And don’t be afraid to gently correct him if it’s too hard or not hard enough etc. I think we’re very trainable. 
Haha…sex has never sounded so gross. But that’s true. Sometimes I masturbate just because it feels good and other times, it’s like there is such a build up that I basically have to. Mostly that’s during ovulation.
Oh, yes, that’s definitely true. I just mean that a one night stand where we’re both really drunk is likely not to result in any kind of orgasm, whereas sex with someone who knows my body and who I can communicate with over time will turn out to be good. Whereas I think a one night stand with for a guy…it may not be as great as sex with a partner who really knows him, but orgasm might not be as huge a problem for him. Speaking as a girl, I definitely know it won’t happen…plus there’s the whole needing to feel safe with your partner which I think is maybe less an issue for men?
I’ve wondered if men are like microwave ovens and women are like BBQ grills (aren’t the coals hot YET?).
Yeah, most guys aren’t worried about security—or weren’t, till *Fatal Attraction * came out.
For a guy, I’m weird on these issues, though. If going on the rollercoaster was fun, wouldn’t going on it twice be twice as fun? So the one-night stand never made sense to me.
Yeah, the whole ‘danger/illegitimacy = fun’ thing never appealed to me either.
The one-night stand only makes sense to me when I’m in an ‘I gotta hump something, even if it’s the lamppost’ phase. Once that desire is past, I slow down and come to my senses. Outside that urgent desire, I’d rather get to know someone. I mean, you’re sharing your bed with someone. Wouldn’t you like to know whether they were a decent person?
I just want to say something about the whole “rejecting her negated the one power she has” thing — you guys are, in essence, right. Maybe not about Paul in Saudi’s companion specifically, but definitely about American society in general.
I think the women who are all offended & disagreeing with you are women who are young & attractive enough not to have learned one of the hardest lessons we have for women in our nice modern world.
When you are not someone who is considered a viable sexual option by men in general, then no one has to pay much attention to you at all. I don’t mean that people will only pay attention to attractive women; but I’m sure you’ve heard women talk about how once you’re over 40 or 50, you become invisible. They’re not making it up.
There are also women for whom this is not true. Honestly, I think it’s a pheromone thing. A few years ago, someone discovered a particular pheromone that is especially compelling, which women begin to taper-off producing sometime in midlife. (each woman probably at a different rate.) I never heard any followup on that.
IIRC in “Great Expectations,” Dickens noted that often the least attractive people are the nicest. Inference: that’s because they have to be…their looks won’t get them anywhere.
Around 1940, the life expectancy for people was around 40, and while I realize there might be a large standard deviation around that number, it would seem that not so many women survived into post-menopausal years.
Quoting brujaja:
I don’t mean that people will only pay attention to attractive women; but I’m sure you’ve heard women talk about how once you’re over 40 or 50, you become invisible.
What’s the old ax out there, something about women in their 40s having a better chance of being victims of a terrorist act than getting remarried? Post-9/11 I wonder if that’s true but it seems to speak to a common perception at least.
From a cold/hard/cruel evolutionary point of view, once women lose the ability to have children, they’re “useless” but of course men can continue to sire them.
What doesn’t make sense to me, though, is that I don’t think so many guys are concerned with having children. An attractive woman is an attractive woman and the point for many (?) guys is sexual gratification, not babies. If a guy has to choose between a hot 25 year old and a hot 55 year old, he would probably go with the 25 year old. But his real first choice would be “both.”
You gals are missing the point. It really comes down to the act of being sexual that makes the man feel loved and wanted/desired by a woman; not just shooting his rocks off. He (a man who loves the woman would do everything possible) will do his best to give her the orgasms that rock her world as well. The most loving thing a woman can do for her man is to give him that opportunity on a regular basis…and that in turn will make for one confident man who will do anything or everything for her. Withhold it, he’s gonna eventually withdraw; or worse, look elsewhere.
A healthy relationship would have one gifting the other on near equal terms, spontaneously. THAT admittedly is quite hard to do…and why many relationships break down…each one feels the other is taking them for granted. They usually suffer the symptoms without realizing what the problem is before it can be understood and remedied.
I asked my best friend a few questions about this. She’s a woman, a little over fifty. I’ve known her for just about twenty years and consider her to be extremely intelligent, as well as strong and independent.
- A man hits on a woman and offers sex. Gets turned down. A woman offers a man sex and gets turned down. On whom is this rejection harder? Man or woman?
A: “The woman. A man would move on to the next woman, but a woman would nurse a hurt longer before trying another man.”
- Why?
A: “Men are more driven by sex than women. For most men, sex is a primal urge and being turned down doesn’t reflect as damage his “self” as much as for a woman - it may bother his ego, but doesn’t hurt emotionally. For most women, sex is an act of love and being turned down can be taken to mean that her ‘love’ isn’t good enough. For men it is physical, for women, it is emotional.”
- How many times have you made the advance and been rejected vs. having rejected a man’s advance?
A: “About even, I’d say. Although men are more likely to accept a casual advance than a woman would, as long as the woman was physically attractive enough. A woman looks for more depth of attraction.”
- How does being rejected relate to your “power” as a woman?
A: “It’s destructive. A woman’s power is physical and mental - they are tied together. A man being rejected is most always purely physical whereas a woman rejected is most often physical and emotional.”
- Who has the power in the sexual acceptance and rejection game between the sexes?
A: “I believe that men do. Mostly because of the lack of emotional needs that women have.”
I found her answers interesting, especially the last one. I was thinking women have more power because the more often get to choose “no.” But my friend feels men have more power because they’re, at least initially, less invested.
There is still a double standard. If a man asks for sex and gets rejected, he’s not going to take it as personally. It’s accepted that some women might just not want to have sex without it being a reflection on the quality of the particular man. But if a woman asks for sex and gets rejected, she’s probably going to take it as a rejection of her as an individual.
Maybe, maybe not. I can tell you this though, you REALLY don’t want to be in the position of being a man asking another man for sex and being turned down. Ouch, that hurts.
:dubious: This sounds suspiciously like the argument of 16-year-old boys across the country trying to get their girlfriends into bed… ‘Baby, if you really loved me you’d prove it…’ Okay, I’m half kidding. But it is nice that you differentiate between sex and orgasms. I think the assumption that thew two can always be equated (especially for women) often creates confusion when discussing men and women’s sex drives.
That rings true for me, if the BBQ grill can take anywhere from hours to weeks to heat up, can go stone cold because of a number of stupid reasons, and then take twice as long to heat up again. Or on other days it will flame up instantly, usually when nobody is hungry.
Behaviors and societal dynamics that people have been bred and raised with for many centuries, are not easily cast off and walked away from just on account of what even for our most advanced societies is less than one century’s worth of emancipation. Similarly, patterns you are imprinted and conditioned with before reaching full maturity (e.g. during adolescence) are quite persistent in the emotional level even after your older self “intellectually”** knows ** you’re falling into mindgame BS. (IOW, many men AND women SHOULD realize they are either facing or playing along with the “manipulative female archetype”… and their intellect is trying to tell them that this is BS that should be beneath them and nobody should put up with… but emotional and subconscious pressures prevent them from breaking it off)
Actually, your first paragraph applies equally to both sexes, IMO, and your second paragraph **is ** “the point”, and I completely “get it”. My issue was with what I perceived as **lobotomyboy’s ** assumptions about female sexuality. There always seems to be an attitude among some men that women don’t really like sex, we just either do it to make you happy or withhold it to make you miserable. I find that notion both absurd and narcissistic.
These threads make me crazy. I’ve been with a lot of men, and you know what they all have in common, sexually? Penises. I’ve never encountered any two men with exactly the same attitude towards sex. Or, ya know, anything else. It would never occur to me to think that ‘Men’ do or think or feel any one thing, so I’ll never understand why anyone would think that of women, either. There’s no hivemind on either side of the gender divide.