And you were the one who allowed her to play that game by staying in when she pulled that shit. By doing so, you reinforced her notion that this is the way relationships work
I try really hard not to get cynical*, but it often seems to me that many men have no ability to connect the fact that their overriding priority in getting a sexual or romantic partner is “hotness” leads directly to the consequence of them having sex with women of little or no character.
You know character, right? Honesty, integrity, empathy, emotional strength, and other qualities which result in a person who brings happiness into your life instead of strife, manipulation, and disappointment?
I even question how much of that decision is based on true attraction because so many men parrot the same over-exposed big boobs/tiny waist image as their preference. That’s not about attraction. It’s about status. Many men are so status conscious, they refuse to be seen with a woman they are genuinely attracted to because she’s too plain, too butch, too fat, too soccer mom, or not pretty enough, not sexy enough, not hot enough. Whatever.
When the only women you ask for sex are bitches, even if you only score once, you’re going to get up with fleas.
Because, of course, the exact opposite happens with women, choosing men based on things like their earning potential, instead of their character. But since I’m not interested in dating other women, it’s not nearly as likely to make me feel so cynical.
I’m not being snarky in the least: please explain. I’ll address your post point by point:
My issue was with what I perceived as **lobotomyboy’s ** assumptions about female sexuality. There always seems to be an attitude among some men that women don’t really like sex, we just either do it to make you happy or withhold it to make you miserable. I find that notion both absurd and narcissistic.
My mother (born 1924) is a total prude. I’m 100% sure she saw sex as “regrettably necessary” to have kids, which she adores—otherwise, why have 11 of them? Do you really think, Diana, that men are delighted to discover that the woman they’re with are frigid? HEY—I know some men are jerks and their women (perhaps rightly?) shut them out but men like sex.
A woman who likes sex? GOLD! I’ll allow for the fact that I’m not the greatest male specimen on Earth…still I’d just love it if the woman I care about spontaneously jumped in the shower with me or surprised me by coming to bed in lingerie or put her hand in my pants and said, “I’ve been thinking about you ALL day!” I’m not sure that women have the same drive as men do, but I’d like to think some may be out there.
we just either do it to make you happy
Please initiate. It could be sampling error but I just haven’t met that many women who do. Maybe you’re a sexual hellcat, Diana…the women I’ve dated just don’t initiate out of politeness or something…hint around it, maybe, but actually come out and declare that they’re horny and need it? No.
I think a lot of guys get tired of feeling like we’re the only ones who want it. Simple analogy: if you go out with your friends every Saturday for lunch, and you’re the only one who suggests Pepe’s tacos, at some point you notice that nobody else mentions it or suggests it or anything. Eventually you figure, ‘It must be that I’m the only one who likes that place.’ Then you feel like you don’t want to mention it any more.
or withhold it to make you miserable
I’ve been on the receiving end of this enough times to know that it does happen. I’ve talked to enough other guys to think it isn’t just me.
In all fairness, maybe it gets back to something earlier, that men prize sex very highly. Withholding sex is no small thing to us and while I’m sure many women enjoy it, they can go longer without than we can. IIRC the figure out there was that 16 year old boys have a sexual thought every 19 seconds. Other dopers may come forward and dispute that, saying that no, it was really like every 5.
I find that notion both absurd and narcissistic.
The “absurd” term is vague and could mean many things. If you want to expound on that, great. But I really lost you at narcissistic.
I’m not tracking. We didn’t have sex on the first date. Do you mean that I shouldn’t have continued dating her and developing a relationship before introducing sex into the equation? If you mean that I should have realized that her initial ‘request’ for it could only spell bad things, so I should have bailed before getting involved…I’ll have to think about that.
She could have lost 20-30 lbs but I didn’t care. One day she started crying and said, “I look like a snowman!” I didn’t see it till much later. One night I was lying in bed as she brushed her teeth. She turned sideways and I realized she had a much bigger paunch than I’d noticed. And I didn’t care because I knew, from how she made me feel, that she was beautiful and she loved me for who I—horribly flawed—was.
Hmm, I’ve heard of it. But I wonder if you really know what it is. Fuck you.
Bitter much? The asterisked part redeems you a little.
lobobtomyboy63, I’m not being snarky either, but the first three points are, once again, you extrapolating your experience to account for the behavior of all humanity. There’s nothing wrong with that, we all do it. But I’ll share with you, not for the first time around here, my mantra: *The one thing that all my experiences have in common is me. * If we divide the world into people who routinely have happy, satisfying and fullfilling sex, and people who don’t… I suspect we’ll find that each group is mostly dating each other.
As to the fourth point, what I find absurd and narcissitic is the idea that the reasons that women in general have or don’t sex are all about men. Honestly, I swear to you, we’re whole separate people with interior lives and all sorts of motivations of our own. It’s not always about you, dude.
I’m not talking about her offer and your refusal to have sex. Every individual has the right to offer or refuse sex for any reason or none at all. I’m talking about the part where she began confabulating ("If I’d let you have sex with me on the first date . . . ") and her pulling the “but I give you nookie” ploy to get her way. Those two things are huge red flags - that she’s not honest with herself (and thus is incapable of being honest with other people) and that she’s willing to manipulate others with something that should be shared openly and freely.
Believe it or not, that was not a personal attack. It was more frustration with our culture and society, and the normative values they espouse.
Your response is a personal attack, and is inappropriate to this forum.
Occasionally. It’s hard not to be when the majority of opinions men pronounce on women seem to be centered on whether or not the woman is worth having sex with. I can’t begin to count the number of times, even on this board, when discussion of a woman’s character, her accomplishments, and her value as a human being are interrupted with “yeah, I’d do her”.
Hell, there was even a Pit thread on Ann Coulter wherein several men made comments along the lines of “she’s a rabid, undead whore, but I’d still pound that balloon knot.”
Point taken. I can only be me. Just as we can’t conclude that everybody’s like me, you know that it’s equally wrong to assume that nobody is like me. All that’s left to do is to find some statistics, I guess…nah, let’s go for the joke.
Sure they’re based on stereotypes, but that’s the point: if they were wildly false and didn’t reflect the experiences of many, people wouldn’t get the joke.
Ah…ok, I see what your point is, thanks. The term ‘narcissistic’ threw me: I thought you were saying that it hurts men’s precious-little-snowflake egos when we’re turned down.
Exaggerating for effect: a man with a sun-blistered face and horribly swollen tongue crawls out of a desert into an oasis. He asks for water.
The woman says, “Damn, it’s always about you, isn’t it?!”
I would invite you and other women to examine your ideas about a man’s need for sex.
People throw the word “need” around in a lot of cases in every day life, and sometimes it’s merited and sometimes not. I mean, if you think about a need like food, you could test it—put a man in a cage for months, don’t feed him, and see what happens. Ultimately of course he’ll die. “Need food=necessary for survival.”
A man could survive in a cage for months without sex (give him adequate food etc of course). Note: don’t allow him use of his hands…put a big old Elizabethan collar around Mr. Happy to deny him any access for stimulation. My guess is that his heart will still be beating etc. but he’ll be pretty messed up emotionally, which would easily spill over into physiological changes like elevated blood pressure. My conclusion, which I invite you to discuss/challenge etc. is “Need sex=necessary for emotional survival.”
Returning to the bit about narcissism: my concern is that women underestimate or trivialize how important sex is to men, thinking if sex isn’t a big deal to women then it must not be to men. I know that’s coming from my own experience and subject to huge sampling error but as you can see, it’s got nothing to do with a big macho male ego.
It didn’t all happen in one weekend or anything. I’ll let you decide if this is typical: you start dating someone and discover they’re not perfect. But you also know they have some really terrific qualities that you don’t find every day. It’s always this ongoing cost-benefit analysis and when you’re in the middle of it, it’s hard to tell which signs you should pay attention to and which are just flashes in the pan.
Unfortunately there’s a phenomenon like what you see in gambling, where you won’t walk away because you’ve already invested so much in it. I developed this bad habit, maybe, where I say: “I’ve come this far…I’m skeptical. But it isn’t like we’re getting married tomorrow, so I can postpone a major decision. I guess I might as well see how it all plays out.” It isn’t just wishful thinking or denial, but a leap of faith that says, “Most every relationship is going to hit a wall sooner or later. If you bail at the first sign of trouble, you’re never going to have success.”
I’m older and wiser now, largely because of that relationship.
Your post quoted mine. Then you went on to say:
You know character, right? Honesty, integrity, empathy, emotional strength, and other qualities which result in a person who brings happiness into your life instead of strife, manipulation, and disappointment?
How is condescending to me not a snarky personal attack on my intelligence, character, and so on? I get sooo tired of it when women assume men are these hollow containers—no emotion or feelings, all sex drive. But, ask any guy who suffers from “nice guy syndrome” what I’m talking about and you’ll get an earful.
If I’m reading too much into the exchange, I’ll withdraw my insult with sincere apologies. You hit my hot button topic, I’ll admit. But can you admit that you made me the lightning rod for the part I underlined?
I’ll validate your observation, i.e. that men do that all the time. I’ll have to reflect and get back to you on what it is men are saying (and not saying) by making those comments.
One day I came home from work and my dog greeted me. She jumped up against me, turned in circles…you’d think it was the second coming of Christ. I sat on the couch and she jumped up. I didn’t know that one dog could simultaneously play bite your hand with one side of her mouth, lick your face out of the other, wag her tail, cuddle up against you, snort with delight, and push your chest with a front paw to say ‘I want to play!’ while jockeying for a closer position with her rear legs. But it turns out, that’s entirely possible.
I’ll rewind now, change the scenario and add one thing: One day I came home from work and my dog greeted me. *I reached in the refrigerator for a snack * .
NOW she plants herself on the floor, licking her lips. “Did you have a good day, Angel?” She doesn’t hear a word I said. Her eyes are glued to that piece of food—I move the hand with the food up, her eyes go up. I take her favorite toy and throw it—she loves to play fetch. Only she isn’t budging. I bend over for a “kiss” and she licks my cheek. But it’s extremely perfunctory, impatient and worse, she sniffs the air vigorously—she isn’t really focused on my needs. No wonder I sometimes cry myself to sleep.
Conclusion: she’s attending to the most compelling stimulus. I could be the most wonderful human being, and if it’s “just” me like in the original paragraph, I’m golden. But I can’t possibly compete with that piece of cold pizza.
Is she hungry? I didn’t forget to feed her…she had a full bowl of dog food and it’s half gone, so she knows it’s there and could have had more at any time up to that point. In fact, I feed her regularly, without fail—this isn’t some stray who doesn’t know where her next meal is coming from. But she does know that she doesn’t get refrigerator food every day, so this is a rare opportunity. If I were to fill her dish with put cold pizza, then came home and took dog food out of the refrigerator for my snack, she’d want the dog food. Her “Is that good food that I don’t ordinarily have access to? Have I had that before? I bet it’s good!” scanning device never goes off, even when she’s already full.
I don’t know much about Ann Coulter’s politics except that Al Franken flamed her to a crisp in one of his books. Since I tend to agree with Al on a lot of issues, I probably wouldn’t like Coulter’s views. I think it’s really important that people in a relationship be compatible, have similar goals for the future, be able to communicate effectively, yadda yadda yadda.
OTOH I have seen Ann’s picture. Hmm, nice. Put her—naked and beckoning, in my bed—and you’ve got a man-sized piece of cold pizza.
Argument: “But you don’t have any genuine affection for the woman…you can’t sleep with her!”
Counterargument: If the worst escaped convict Nazi psycho dickhead offered Angel cold pizza, she would accept and it would taste just as great to her.
Argument: “But you’re not a dog; you have a conscience, a rational mind, etc.”
Counterargument: Correct. I hope I’d make a good, moral, rational decision.
But I am, after all, a man with a zillion years of evolution in my genes that have one overwhelming message for me: go nail women so that your genes are passed along.
lobotomyboy63, it is against the rules to say “fuck you” to another poster outside of the Pit. This is a Warning to refrain from such statements in the future.
I take the “I’d still do her” remark as guys’ making self-deprecating jokes, admitting the nasty aspects of male sexuality.
Of course that it’s always offered to physically attractive albeit otherwise loathsome women, never women with power but not looks: you never heard “I’d still do her” about Imelda Marcos, Leona Helmsley, Madam Mao, etc.
In that same vein, to adress a nasty aspect of female sexuality, let’s not overlook the fact that every drug dealer, corporate fund-raider and dictator never lacks for hot bimbos so long as the champagne and tennis bracelets are flowing.
Such is human nature, but what about when the champagne and diamonds stop? Consider Clara Petacci, who stood by Mussolini long after his fortunes fell. She threw herself in front of the machine guns to shield him at the end, and her corpse suffered the same indignities as his. Because of this, she was absolved of bimbo-hood and ultimately was remembered as a tragic figure of loyal if misguided female virtue, and by extension a symbol of all of Italy.
My point being: Ann Coulter would still be an evil bitch even if she couldn’t get laid, but every time some woman gets snuggly with some vicious scumbag, it encourages him to even greater scumbaggery.
I’ll say this again (with addendum)…An average and plain looking woman who usually says “Yes” to her man is exponentially more beautiful than a bikini model who says “No”…but remember this ladies; we’ll probably ask the bikini model first unless we aren’t confident in ourselves.
Lesson: Attraction is one thing, but keeping the one you have/are attracted to is quite another (albeit the most important) thing. The ladder theory and all.
Boy, do I know that feeling. Or as a wiser Doper than I once said: “You know all those red flags you spotted on the way into this relationship? You’re going to hit every single one of them on the way out.”
And again, the comment about character was not directed to you. I was not impugning your character. If it came across that way, I’m very sorry. I was intending it to be something of a slightly ironic reminder, mentioning something that I knew you were aware of but perhaps got a little distracted from.
But, I’d like you to take this comment from your response:
And compare it to what you put in your later response:
Buddy, you don’t get it both ways. Either you are at the mercy of your genetic imperative, and women are correct to scorn you as nothing but a horn dog without discretion, taste, or feelings OR you are more than your genetic imperative: a thinking, feeling, honorable man who considers his character more important than getting laid.
Yeticus, why the hell should I bother with a guy who so clearly regards me as not worth his time until he gets turned down by the hot bikini model?
By writing me third or fourth or dead last on his list of possibilities, he’s made it plain that he has no interest in who I am, just the fact that I have a warm hole which might fit his dick.
In that case, my sincere apologies for flying off the handle.
<snip>
Actually I think life requires people (both M and F) to make a choice. Just because you chose one way yesterday, that doesn’t relieve you of having to choose it again today. Decent, usually upright people sometimes do “crazy” things because we don’t live in a vacuum. Other stressors beyond their control can play a big part.
You really would not know that unless he told you upfront, or you’ve been spying on him. :dubious: Most men learned since puberty that priorities change as one gets older and gains wisdom from the years of courting their fair share of girls/women. As teenagers, boys react to physical beauty primarily, but as they get older, their reactions shift from physical beauty to the overall aspect of what constitutes a “beautiful woman”. This process takes years or in some cases, decades to improve on and then their are some guys “who just don’t get it”.
Bikini models are attractive. The active word here is “attract”. They naturally “attract” men in general and usually at all ages. The men are naturally attracted to these type of women, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t attracted to women who aren’t bikini models. Men are only reacting to a visual stimulus with their first sense: Sight. THERE IS NO WAY TO GET AROUND THIS. They can’t smell her first from a distance. They can’t touch her first without getting a assault and battery charge levied on them, and tasting them first would be even creepier. They could possibly hear her at first, but would immediately follow their curiosity with a visual appraisal to see if the voice matches the physical beauty or not. Men must look…it’s inherent. A bikini model is going to rate high on the scale as an initial impression…THERE IS NO WAY TO GET AROUND THIS. But that is only first impressions; what goes on afterwards determines where the model ends up on his scale due to her actions.
What I’m trying to say here in general terms is that most young men (teenagers and 20-somethings) lust after the bikini models and hope to get “lucky” by chasing them and ignoring the other 99% of the available women, but then as time goes on and they get older, men learn that the cliche that beauty is truly only skin deep, and that actions are the only true way to gauge how much a woman loves her man. That is where the beauty is truly found. We are not born with this nugget of wisdom; we learn over the years of rejection by women and that we need to refine our searching skills to look for beauty in those who are kind to us, talk to us, care about us and consider physical beauty as part of the package, not just “the package”. Every man reaches that threshhold of enlightenment at different points (ages) in their lives. The sooner they figure that out, the sooner they find their most beautiful woman in the world.
Phouka, that comment you made to Lob about not having it both ways, well you’re wrong. The evolutionary process gives each gender their own set of hormones and when you’re young, those usually dictate your actions. As you get older, you learn to rationalize your feelings and decide that their has to be somebody out there for me other than the “bikini model”. You learn to adapt to your environment by looking for beauty in the intangibles that would give oneself pleasure/gratification. So after get shot down by 148 bikini models, he asks someone who also loves to (example: golf, play poker and go to hockey games). She’s not a bikini model, but she does like to scratch that certain itch you always have (whether it’s mental, physical or spiritual). He really didn’t think much about her a few years ago because he was blindly chasing bikini models, but now he’s starting to notice the beauty that goes beyond the physical.
Would you really turn him down if you were the 149th women he’s asked, or would you be able to understand that this is man that is maturing? (This question is not valid in a bar where the guy was drinking, and asked all 148 bikini models in the same night, at the same bar and you just happened along…then you can tell him to pound sound and look for #150.)
Again, the estrogen and testosterone goggles are making each gender assume the worst in the other. Try to shed those for some true understanding instead of taking the defensive posturing.
We’re all people trying to live our lives the best we know how. I’m not sure I see the need for one gender to “feel” the rejection any more painfully than another.
It’s true that as you get older your prorities change but if anything that makes it hurt more. I didn’t mind getting shot down by the stunning college champion gymnast (purely hypothetical example who would never have been named Sophie or anything like that) nearly as much as being turned away from the ones whom I felt a real connection to and was genuinely interested in something more than just a roll in the sack.
But surely women “rank” men as well? If you’re available and interested, you meet new men from time to time, or maybe all the time. A new co-worker, a new neighbor…someone at church, someone a friend introduced you to…a guy you’ve see when you’re out with friends dancing or someone you keep running into at the dry cleaners.
I assume you evaluate these men by whatever criteria are important to you—intelligence, humor, accomplishment, physical appearance, whatever—and while you might not write a numerical top ten list, maybe you have a rough sort like an A list, a B list, and a C list.
So if you were unattached at the moment and a guy very high on the B list asked you out, I would expect that you would accept, even though he’s “only” in third or fourth place.
I agree with this, posted by Yeticus:
So after get shot down by 148 bikini models, he asks someone who also loves to (example: golf, play poker and go to hockey games). She’s not a bikini model, but she does like to scratch that certain itch you always have (whether it’s mental, physical or spiritual). He really didn’t think much about her a few years ago because he was blindly chasing bikini models, but now he’s starting to notice the beauty that goes beyond the physical.
I read a quote attributed to Candace Bergen that said, IIRC: “It takes a long time to become a human being.” I think that applies to a lot of boys/men. Some of us have learned through painful experience that highly attractive women don’t always have much else going for them. After an initial period of hot sex, there may not be much common ground for discussions or mutual interests, so there won’t be companionship or a LTR. Dessert is tasty, but ultimately it won’t sustain, nourish, or satisfy you.
All that said, I think most (straight) men will never lose their appreciation for a fine-looking female. Maybe I’ll be 85 in a hospital bed and when that candy striper comes in, I’ll notice. It’s just wired too deeply in our brains.
OK, as a male myself, may I say you may not have noticed you just risked severe damage to your point, by equiparating rejection by a person with restraint from the mere mechanics of physical stimulation. (And that’s putting aside my own low opinion, expressed in other threads, of the idea that sexual denial is somehow more horrible than any other form of deprivation.) Your example fails because IRL, “I’m not giving you any tonight” does NOT (usually…) involve slapping a chastity-bondage rig on the rejectee.
The “slap” of “no sex until you back down and let me win” is most often NOT to the sex drive but to the emotional aspect – of desirability, of power, of control over your surroundings, of expectations, and it means a different thing for every person. Quite frankly I have no database of research on this other than my own experience and that which has been shared with me by friends and family, so take it for what it’s worth, but from what I can see, there are both men AND women who can just walk away with no trouble AND there are men AND women who freak out if faced with “don’t call us, we’ll call you”; there are BOTH men and women who are primarily looking for some deep emotional bond and both men and women who are primarily looking to knock boots AND ALSO men and women who on any given point in their lives may be alternating between one and the other inclination. As MikeG says, it can become if anything even more painful once it transcends the instinctive phase.
That stereotypically it’s expected that it’ll be (usually young) males who for the sake of being in females’ good graces will do risky or stupid things may not mean that their sex drive is more powerful, but rather that their skills at risk-benefit analysis and at focusing their interest need work.
And, respectfully, phouka, precious few of us can truly say we know we were the First Choice right from the start. I do NOT feel at all insulted if after she has aimed for the archetypal studly dreamboats she then notices my less-flashy but also good qualities.
