Thanks 
I may be a bitch, but I admit it freely.
Go read up on ladder theory. It’s unscientific and misogynistic at times but many of the social dynamics are spot-on.
Women, in general, will either sleep with you, or not. This decision is made quickly after interactions start, and sometimes even before then. It sounds like you need to stop spilling your guts ten minutes into the conversation - at least find out whether they’ll tickle your pickle first. As mentioned earlier, injecting sexuality and innuendo into the conversation and studying the response is an excellent way to determine whether she’s interested or not.
Hardly a Casanova, myself, but I’ve learned that there can be opportunities where you might not expect. Of course I’m still in college where banging is a close second to academics, and one of the few places where cultivating an intellectual appearance can do wonders.
Start drinking a latte with your cigarette? I dunno.
Yes! This! I haven’t read through the entire thread, but this was my first thought after reading the OP. I have never in my life met a genuinely nice guy who had to bring this fact to my attention. I don’t even think any of them would describe themselves as nice (though others would), but they do fine with the ladies (or gents). Yeah, some of them are good looking – and it is an awful truth that when women go for the ‘bad boy,’ he’s more often than not ‘the hot bad boy who’s great in bed’ – but usually they’re just nice, laid back and at least mildly humorous. Plus they respect women (and, again, make this so clear there is no need to state it). No great feat.
Seriously man? Girls don’t like nice guys? Do you dislike nice girls? Everyone likes nice people; don’t get shit twisted in your head. Aside from severely wounded girls (abused, low self-esteem, disturbed), women love a nice guy; you are just not seeing the forest for the trees. Besides, most self-proclaimed “nice guys” are anything but nice. It’s a damn travesty how “nice guy” has been accosted and distorted from what it should mean. That aside, consider these points:
[ul]For many possible reasons (anthropological, evolutionary, just because), women respond to men who approach them. The nice guy is sitting in the corner busy thinking he’s the bee’s knees and no one is noticing, while the jerk is trying to score some broads. He is approaching more women (albeit true jerks are probably being deceptive in doing so) which improves his chance for success. Meanwhile, the nice guy is not even giving the girl the opportunity to like him.
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[ul]“Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength.” (- Hoffer) People, especially younger or less-experienced individuals, see someone being rude (guess what? jerks are often rude), and they confuse that with strength. People like strength (in this sense I mean strength of character, but they also like other forms of strength); and occasionally they will respond to someone who puts on a facade of strength via rudeness. Truly strong people are likely not pinging your radar as a jerk; and as a result, when they are successful with women you don’t notice it as it doesn’t fit into your preconceived notion (selection bias).
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[ul]People don’t like feeling emotionally obligated, shown up, or inferior. Most “nice guys” constantly try those techniques on other people, and it only surprises them when those methods don’t work. It is not “nice” to pretend to put someone’s happiness ahead of your own (while reminding them all the way you are doing so), and it is not “jerkish” to tend to your own priorities in a decisive manner.
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[ul]We live in a culture that often idolizes, or at the very least accommodates, people who choose a “masturbatory” lifestyle. By that I mean they only do things that they think will please themselves at the expense of other aspects or people in their life. As a result, some women and men don’t always think through what they are doing; which allows emotional manipulators to operate. Sometimes people get taken advantage of, it doesn’t mean women like jerks anymore than men like iced bitches.
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[ul]Many people don’t like being self-reflective and examining their life, men or women, and it’s easier to bitch about things they think are outside of their control. Statements such as “women don’t like nice guys” or “all men are jerks” allow people to delude themselves into excusing their own faults. Even worse, it spreads these false generalizations and clouds the judgment of society. Its easy for a girl to bemoan the fact that all the guys are jerks, when what she is really saying is all the guys that she is involved with are jerks (like it or not, it’s her problem). Random dude passing by hears her say that and thinks “Well women must only like jerks, maybe I’ll become a jerk to attract more women,” or random girl passing by thinks, “Well she is attracted to jerks, maybe I should be to,”; and the cycle of bullshit continues. Along those same lines, some people become complacent to what ever is happening in their life and just accept it. Far easier to accept a toxic relationship than it is to fix the factors that are feeding it.
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Bottom line is “nice guys” think they can somehow “nice” their way into a girl’s pants; and their turmoil comes when they find out their emotional games have backfired. Then they turn around and bitch that women don’t like nice guys. Be honest with yourself and with the people you come across and you will spare yourself quite a bit of misery in the future.
For a bit of personal advice - Stop with this noise. Quit focusing on women and invest some time for yourself. I told you in that breakup thread not to pursue the other gal, and this is why. You got some demons to battle and you’re mixing yourself up. Improve yourself for god’s sake. In my opinion, it’s readily apparent that you don’t respect yourself and you need some confidence, how can you expect a woman to respect or have confidence in you when you, yourself, don’t? Also, the way you act with regards to women is troublesome. You are white-knighting like hell, and women do not find that attractive. Women aren’t weak-minded lemmings who can’t help but be attracted to jerks, and you aren’t the nice guy who should come riding in to save them. They find attractive what they find attractive, and they don’t owe some nice guy a damned thing. If a woman liked being treated horrible in an objective sense, it’s no business of yours and you should wish her all the best as she will likely have a rocky path ahead.
Absofuckinglutely!
This thread has given me a lot of useful advice to reflect on. But that might just prove your point: years ago I quit thinking of myself as a “Nice Guy” (uncapitalized at the time because I didn’t know it was a type) and got confident in the fact that I’m a pretty good person.
The difference being, Autolycus, that even back then, I didn’t blame any problems I was having on the theory that “girls don’t like nice guys,” because I knew it was garbage.
It’s youth, Auto. Just give them time to grow up. Or, um, date more mature women.
OK, I didn’t read every word of every post.
I really disagree that every “nice guy” thinks it means he’s going to get into the woman’s pants. I won’t deny that they’re out there, but as a default assumption, hmm. It could be low self-esteem and a codependency scenario, for instance…it depends on the guy.
The passive-aggressive thing that keeps popping up has me scratching my head. I thought that assuming the woman and I dated and got to know each other, that would naturally take place at an appropriate time. But as someone posted, the real issue is getting the date in the first place, so I don’t get it.
As I’ve grown older I’ve noticed that most people are really lousy actors. E.g. the guy who holds the restaurant door for the woman etc. may seem nice, but when he reams the kitchen staff a new asshole for some minor transgression, the true colors come through—if you’re paying attention.
I think that in my formative years, perhaps due to the women’s liberation movement, I realized that women wanted to be treated like more than a bag of bones. I have no problem with that. My mother was working in a factory—she became president of her union. I never doubted that women could be competent, that they had ideas and opinions etc. So great; bring it on. I never wanted a sperm bank/June Cleaver.
Some other nice guys (recovering and otherwise) may be along to salute some of these:
*Scenario: a college party. Some guy at the party is bragging about this and that, and the women are listening. Here’s what would go through my head: ‘God this guy is an asshole! First, I have seen his car and it isn’t what he describes. Second, is that really all he has to offer them? Third, are women really that stupid and shallow? Well, maybe some are…but I don’t think I’d want a woman who was that lame.’ Etc.
*Just yesterday I crossed paths with a co-worker I usually don’t see. She was dressed quite well, accenting a nice figure, had some tasteful makeup, etc., and looked really great. I didn’t say anything to her about it. A) I just assume that beautiful women know they’re beautiful, B) why would they care what my opinion was?, C), she may see it as a cheesy attempt, even though I sincerely think she looks nice, at which point D) it might come off as inappropriate in the workplace.
There’s something about that simple failure—a subtype of nice guys are actually too respectful and from lack of practice, might say something ham-handed, then shy away from trying again. If the basic, “Hey, you look nice today,” isn’t available to signal a simple interest in another person, you’re pretty much screwed from the gitgo. [NB: there’s a big age difference and I think she’s dating someone, but I’ll own the failure. It probably wouldn’t have led to a date or anything, but flirting is a skill I need to practice. I just fall into the old default when I’m tired.]
*I missed the memo. Some time ago I was watching a TV program where the men said, “Fake it till you make it.” I.e. it’s okay to brag to women about all the things you’re going to do. I was raised not to promise anything I wasn’t very sure I could to deliver. I figured the guys were bullshitting when they did that and I wasn’t willing to go there; now I think, ‘Well, who has a crystal ball? Maybe those guys really did do what they said they would. And if the women didn’t get it in writing, that’s their fault.’
This was what I came in here to say.
I’ve sometimes (jokingly) declared myself the world’s biggest expert on women, not just because I am a woman but because I’ve spent my entire adult life around mostly women. This is due mostly to my educational and career choices – a large majority of my classmates and coworkers have always been women. All of my closest friends are women. I even come from a family of all girls. In other words, I know a heck of a lot of women.
And whenever I hear this “Women don’t like nice guys” or “Women only like jerks” line, I wonder who these women are. The vast majority of women I know like nice guys, date nice guys, and some have already gone on to marry nice guys. I’m not just talking women my age now, but everyone I’ve known since I was a teenager. Some of my friends made mistakes along the way and dated a jerk or two, but these relationships didn’t last because nice women don’t want to date jerks and break up with them once their jerkitude becomes obvious and undeniable.
I’ve known a very few women who regularly dated guys I’d describe as jerks, and every single one of those women had serious issues. Several came from abusive families. Some were unusually stupid. Others were just plain psycho. One I’m thinking of was not just a drunk, but a nasty, violent, screaming drunk. Even some of these women did eventually get their acts together and settled down with nice guys. As for the ones who didn’t, well, trust me gentlemen, you should consider yourselves lucky if they weren’t interested in guys like you.
If you’re a man and you have no success with women, it’s not because there’s something wrong with all the women in the world. It’s because there’s something wrong with you. The problem could be any number of things, not all of them actual character flaws, but I can 100% guarantee you that it’s not because you’re too nice.
Funny you say that; my last three girlfriends were all around 29 when we first met. Age =/= maturity though they were all mature IMO.
I’m getting to responding to all the other comments. Hold your horses everyone.
I’d like a definition of “nice,” please.
E.g. someone mentioned going out to dinner. I used to think that saying it really didn’t matter where we went was the thing to do. I’m not hard to please and if she’s really in the mood for a particular type of food, let’s go there. I thought it showed that I valued her opinion.
Of course now I know that some will interpret that as indecisiveness on my part. So I’ll learn that habit and some day she’ll say, “You know, you NEVER ask me where I want to eat!”
This is, as the old saying goes, required but not sufficient. I assume this would not be enough for you to find interest in a man.
BTW, I actually don’t know whether it has to be as long and hard a slog as I’ve been saying for a low-confidence man. I just know it has been that way for me, and it’s not over yet (and I’m about twice as old as some of you in the first bloom of adulthood).
The point isn’t to do things to solely please the girl, and dating isn’t about following a certain set of rules. If you’ve been reading the posts in this thread carefully, you will see that it’s not just about decisiveness versus indecisiveness, but rather treating the woman as an individual who listens to her wants and needs. So yeah, some days, it’s good for you to suggest a restaurant, other days, when you don’t care so much, you could ask her what she feels like having… but having it one way or the other ALL THE TIME doesn’t work for anyone.
Okay, just going to throw my two cents into the mix here. I used to be a Nice Guy™. And when I say Nice Guy™ I mean one of the guys that complains about how jerks get all the women and nobody ever appreciates me etc. etc. etc.
Now, I’m just a nice guy. I was in a relationship for a year and a half and I was too nice of a guy in it. I ended up being walked over for a good majority of it and I learned from it. When the relationship ended, I didn’t come out of it thinking “Man, why don’t women ever like nice guys?” I came out of it thinking “I really need to change some things about me.”
Right now I’m trying to change my life around. I’m currently 23, no full-time job, lives with parents. No matter how good of a guy I am personality wise there’s no way in hell I’m going to attract women in these conditions. So instead of focusing on why women won’t like me, I’m focusing on changing things to make myself attractive to more women. I’m working at a temp agency which will boost my resume so I can get to a full-time job. Once I get a full-time job I can move out and join some social activities, like a pool league or a softball league or something. THEN I can start focusing on meeting new women. As much as I WANT to sit down and complain that women just never like nice guys, I know it’s my own damn fault right now that I’m single and nobody’s looking at me. I know I have a great personality and I don’t have low self-esteem in the looks department, but there’s more to attraction and building a romantic relationship than personality and looks.
My point is, don’t try to pull self-pity as an excuse. I used to, and it never worked. Not once when I went to my female friends lamenting “Oh girls never appreciate nice guys” did they suddenly go “Oh! I know you are such a nice guy! Here are my panties!” Sure, they cheered me up and gave me great advice like “Someday, some girl will appreciate you.” :dubious: But it definitely didn’t make me more attractive to them.
I also noticed a few women talking about the “just friends” problem. My thing is that I like to get to know a woman on a friendship level before I make a romantic step. But there’s a huge difference between getting to know somebody on that level for a bit and then asking them out, and making friends with somebody of the opposite sex and then waiting for them to suddenly break into spontaneous sex with you.
When I feel the need to vent self-pity, I at least make sure I’ve enjoyed a male-positive beverage or two first, and can express myself with a hard, cynical edge instead of just blubbering. Playing the Black Prince of Misanthropy is a very small step up from being Mr. Milquetoast, but at least it’s got a little thumos and yang, even if they’re cheaply had.
I’d like to believe that there’s a method to the madness, but each person is a different puzzle and the differences might be more important than the similarities.
Especially in this more liberated era, a lot of us men would do the right thing if we knew what it was—Do you buy her dinner or will she insist, “I can pay my own way” so you don’t think you’re entitled to sex? But if you go dutch, are you then a cheapskate who doesn’t even care enough to treat her to dinner and must not value her very highly?
Sometimes I run situations past my sisters, just trying to understand wtf a woman was telling me from the way she behaved or what she said. Unfortunately my sisters can be as perplexed as I am. Maybe that comes from how we were raised in the same family; maybe I’m leaving out something important, overlooking something, putting a different spin on something unintentionally.
Or_maybe_there_are_no_rules. If she’s really interested, unless you screw up pretty badly, you’re in. If she isn’t interested, there isn’t much you can do to save the day.
I think too that we probably suffer from a naivete; if you see a woman and she acts interested, you think that over. Next time you see her, maybe she’s distant.
*Maybe she met another guy in the interim
*Maybe she was just killing time
*Maybe you misinterpreted the signals
*Maybe she’s using you to feel better about herself
*Etc.
It’s like getting a test back: you made a 52. But none of the wrong answers are marked. You take your best guess at what you missed and what you got right.
I don’t mean to pick on women; maybe men are just as inscrutable.
Brainiac4 and I were “just friends” for eleven years. During that time I got married and divorced. He got engaged and broke it off. One day I looked at him and said “why haven’t we ever dated?” His answer “You’d go out with me?” As I recall, spontaneous sex broke out. We’ve been together fifteen years.
When we did the timeline, we discovered that the real answer to the question was lack of opportunity - in eleven years I’d been married or dating my ex for five, he’d gotten together with his fiancee right before my ex left me, before that we both spent years seeing other people - we were once single at the same time and in the same place for 30 minutes over eleven years.
He is kind and funny - he isn’t a Nice Guy™
I hate it when guys make this complaint. It’s insulting. Stop playing the martyr.
Either you suck at self-assessment or the girls you’re attempting to date aren’t right in the head. Maybe both.
I could have spent all of high school and college complaining about how guys didn’t want nice girls, and how all they cared about was how hot a girl was. But I didn’t, because I knew 1) that was bullshit, and 2) it wasn’t on me to change.
Take an honest look at yourself. Would you want to be friends with you the way you are with girls? Once I get past your decent looks, confidence, and wit, will I find a guy who isn’t a doormat, is emotionally stable and independent, who doesn’t live in fear of making me upset, who knows the difference between assertiveness and assholishness, and flexible and spineless? You can rattle off a list of qualities that would attract me to you. What qualities of yours would keep me interested?
Take an honest look at the girls you’re trying to date. Good people usually want to be with good people, so at least one of you is the problem. Is there anything about her that screams BIG FREAKING WARNING SIGN that you’re downplaying or ignoring? Is there anything keeping you interested in her other than the desire to fuck her?
By “we” and “us” I guess you refer to only the women who never engage in casual sex? Because it would certainly be hypocritcal to chastize a guy for just wanting to “stick it in” and then go out some night when you’re feeling horny and go home with some random guy who’s entire goal, admittedly, is to just “stick it in.”