You shouldn’t, and they should be. Their understanding and accepting however will depend very much on what they think they know about it and what they want to know about it. I was rather taken aback when my husband’s auntie asked me how I liked living in a free country after we moved to Holland from the US. :eek: But I did not say what I thought of saying, instead I asked her what she meant. It was an interesting conversation.
But if I wanted to raise my kids in a purely American way (not that I could even define that) then I probably should not have married a Dutch guy and moved to Holland. By marryig my husband and having kids I comitted to their having a bigger world view than they otherwise would have had, I did not limit myself to giving them a smaller one.
I take religion, even religions other than mine, seriously. I think an initiation rite into any religion is a serious promise between you and God to try to live as a follower of that religion. If you don’t intend to do that, or you are not in a position to make sure that a child does that (as anybody other than a parent or guardian would not be), you have no business doing that initiation ritual. It’s not something you should do “just in case”, in a sort of Pascal’s wager.
Truly, I have a hard time imagining God being really pissed off that my deluded mother didn’t want her sweet grandbabies to go to Limbo should they die before I got around to calling a priest (Limbo no longer existed by that time but I digress). That was her whole intention.
I take many aspects of faith seriously. But I take love and the people whom I love in all the fullness of their foolishness more seriously than that. It is my hope that those around me will do the same for me.
You misunderstand my examples. I’ll try to be more clear: are you saying that after you (and your husband, presumably) have decided that your children will wear X clothes, eat Y food and attend ABC School, it is just fine with you if your mother comes after you and decides the children will wear K clothes, eat LMN food and attend QRS School? And I’m not talking about when they visit her at her house (although I get the impression from “extended family” that you all live together. Is that right?)
Most children are part of an extended family and most families members are not clones of each other and yes, children do well to be exposed to different lifestyles, etc. Most grandmas buy clothes for the grandkids and feed them while they visit. No sweat with that. But most grandmas do not initiate grandchildren into their own faith without their parents’ permission! Does it matter to her what you might have wanted for your own children? This is not about the condition of their souls; it’s about her respect for your decisions!
Would you be just as laissez-faire if she shaved your sons’ heads without your knowledge or consent because she decided that in her religion all young boys should be bald? Doesn’t hurt them. How about if she dyed all their clothes black because her religion decrees all boys should wear black? You still okay with all that?
Because intent aside (okay, let’s say she was saving baby souls at baptism), she did what SHE wanted and to hell with whatever you and the baby’s father may have wanted. She did what you had either decided not to do, or had not yet decided to do - and that’s imposing her will on you and the children.
You can do whatever you want to. Like I said before, whatever floats your boat. But it sounds to me that you have abdicated your parental authority and responsibility over to your mother’s parental power trip.
I dunno, to me it just sounds like she is picking her battles. Baby baptized in a sink at such a young age that they will not remember it? Not worth an argument with a parent over. If her mother had called a priest and set up a full ceremony and all of that without her permission that would be one thing, but something as simple as a prayer and a spray nozzle in the kitchen isn’t offensive enough to warrant a fight.
My SO and I have talked about it and despite the fact that neither of us are Christian we will have any children we have baptized simply so that my family can sleep better at night. I have spent too many family gatherings watching my grandmother cry over the state of my poor, unbaptized cousin’s soul to think that it would be better not to baptize my hypothetical kid.
You know, possibly I have not been clear: I cannot imagine why I would make some kind of principled decision about my kids’ clothes or their food which I would then try to impose on those caring for my children. I think that’s just whacked. Their schools have been a decision I made after talking to pretty much everybody who cared about the matter, including my husband, my mother, three of my five siblings, my husband’s brother, my husband’s mother, some of my friends…
My mother could not change their schools, not even when I lived on the same continent as she does. So I don’t see how that could come up. But of course I would ask her what she thinks before I did it, why would I not?
When we lived in the US we all lived near each other though not in the same house; when we moved to Holland we lived with my mother in law (and for part of that time with my brother in law also) until she passed.
Those are not beliefs of hers so I don’t know how I would have reacted had she dyed their clothes or shaved their heads. As infants I am not sure I would have noticed, they were pretty bald. My sister had her daughter’s ears pierced in infancy as is traditional, I have no idea if my mother would have had it done otherwise.
I have all the authority, as every parent does. I can indeed do whatever I want to, as every parent can. And what I want is for my kids to be integral members of a family,. My experience is that the more you allow people to invest in your children, the more they invest in your children.
Please realize that not everyone’s extended family always has the best intent. For example, I have a friend whose mother didn’t believe that her daughter really was gluten intolerant and would routinely feed her inappropriate foods. Or I have friends whose parents who are using religion to manipulate their grandchildren.
I am in an interfaith marriage and my children are Jewish. My in-laws routinely send Christmas gifts, which I find harmless and sweet. My MIL made my kids Xmas stockings, as she did every grandchild and we love them despite the fact we do not celebrate Christmas ourselves. However, if she had baptized them in her sink or sent them a cross to wear that would have crossed a line for my sensibilities. Would I have gone ballistic on her? Of course not, because intent does matter. But I would have made it clear that I was uncomfortable with it, and as a member of the family my feelings need to matter too.
Yeah. It’s like, let’s say that you are vegan and your husband may or not be. Neither of your extended families are. After weaning, you both want to raise your kid vegan (and yes, it is completely possible to do so healthily, so they get all their protein, vitamins, minerals, etc. etc. So we’re gonna go with the fact that you know how to give your kids all they need on the vegan diet and won’t go malnourished).
If you found out that your mom or mother in law was feeding your kid meat when they were over, even though they knew you wanted to raise your kid vegan, wouldn’t you be pissed? It’s not the fact that your mom/mil is not vegan themselves. It’s the fact that they are specifically going against how you want to raise your kid.
From everything else you’ve written, your mother was going to “lose her son” if you did anything except live in her basement and stay unmarried forever. I don’t think your problems have anything to do with your wife’s race, national origin, or religion. The fact that you got married at all is what is driving your mother nuts. Good luck.
I think that what **Endemic **can take away from this thread is that different people have different tolerances for the religious interference of others. And he should know now what his wife’s is, although I think the cross thing was a simple misunderstanding. **Endemic **told his mom “A” and later he and wife decided “B” but **Endemic **did not tell his mom “B” and didn’t tell his wife he told his mom “A.” So his mom wasn’t out of line with the cross; she was working on the information she got from Endemic; and his wife didn’t overreact; she was working on the information she got from **Endemic **and twelve years of experience with his mom.
So the bottom line in all this is that **Endemic **needs to learn to communicate better and to stick up for his wife 100% of the time.
Marienee, you are projecting all over the place here. Your experience (fortunately) has little to do with the OP’s experience. Neither does mine. But I know that lots of people have toxic families and can not take the same approach as we do.
The OP’s mother is incredibly controlling and pushy. She needs to be treated differently than a regular person.
When a pushy and controlling person does something like give the baby a cross, it’s going to come across a lot differently than if it came from someone else.
And why on earth are you thinking that those of us who are part of minority religions don’t want our kids exposed to Christianity and other cultures? It would be idiotic to try and prevent my child from learning about the dominant culture/religion of his own country.
Here’s an example of how I feel about it. My son’s new stepmother is Christian, though not particularly religious. My son spends a lot of time with her extended family and is becoming close to them. I’d have no objection whatsoever if my son were brought to a church service for some sort of event in their family. I’d be glad of it because it would be a good learning experience and it would certainly be good in terms of whatever friction there might be from an interfaith marriage where an existing 100% Jewish kid is part of the picture. I know my ex wouldn’t marry a person, Jewish or otherwise, who was pushy about religion, so it’s all good.
Where are you getting the magic power thing from? A cross is a symbol with a lot of meaning.
An example: the synagogue I grew up with didn’t have its own space. It rented space from the local Methodist church. When kids were to be Bar or Bat Mitzvahed, the family had a choice of holding the services in the sanctuary, where a ginormous cross hung over the altar, or the all-purpose room, where there were no ginormous crosses. There was a portable ark that could be wheeled into either room for Jewish services. My family chose to have mine and my brother’s in the sanctuary. We just joked the cross was a “t” for “temple.” I think most families made the same decision. We were used to being in a church and it was no big deal for us.
But I certainly understand the point of view of people who chose otherwise. If someone had a problem belonging to a synagogue in a church, they would have joined one of the other congregations in town. But the thought of having their child Bar Mitzvahed under a huge cross was just a bit much for them, and/or might have made their relatives who weren’t used to going to temple in a church uncomfortable. Since they knew they had the other option, they were able to go with that synagogue if they liked it otherwise.
Do you think they were being silly? I don’t.
How is not wanting a woman known to be pushy and controlling to be involved in your family’s religious choices a parental power trip? There’s a real possibility that she’s trying to “corrupt” the child!
Sure, and that’s wise. In another situation, it might be wise to fight the battle.
How many threads here have we had about people disregarding or pooh-poohing or deliberately choosing to go against other people’s dietary needs? I don’t worry about what other people feed my kid because he has no allergies or diseases. But if my kid were diabetic, you’d better believe I’d take a stand against the relative who feeds him sweets and says “oh, a little won’t hurt.” If my kid had a gluten allergy, I’d have to protect him from the relative who “doesn’t believe in that stuff.”
And if I had a daughter, I’d have to take a stand against a relative who insisted on dressing her in sexually provocative clothing.
You’re lucky that your relatives aren’t assholes and that your kids don’t have special needs. I’m lucky too. Some people aren’t so lucky.
On preview: I agree with legalsnugs. Except that I do think the cross was out of line because she should have confirmed that it was okay before she gave it to her in light of all the other stuff. But it probably wasn’t deliberately malicious.
For Jews, there’s some history behind not wanting our children baptized without our permission. In 1858, a child was taken away from his Jewish parents and sent away to be raised Catholic because a maid had baptized the child. He was never given back to his parents. After World War II, the Pope encouraged baptism of rescued Jewish children, and raising them as Catholics after that. There are other incidents in history of forced baptisms of Jews.
Do you see why the idea of somebody baptizing our children without our permission makes us a bit nervous? Do you see why we don’t buy the idea that it shouldn’t be a big deal to us?
Yes, I know, to my sorrow. Heck, even with the best intentions…intent is all, but in the other hand, a beginning from good intentions around religion have gotten us many painful experiences throughout history. And without them, or even with mixed intentions, certainly children are caught int eh crossfire.
Relly before the current highjack, I meant that I had no advice for the OP, as he is not clear abot his own boundaries and so has far more going on than can be managed on a message board.
I have been vegetarian for large portions of my life, though as a practical matter veganism was beyond me. The answer is, I don’t know. It is not the kind of decision I would make without talking about it a good bit, and I am morally certain it is not the kind of decision my husband would make at all.
The notion that I would just decide something like that and then require it of everybody around me without talking it over and so on and getting everybody on board is so unlikely that, well, I would have to be a different person altogether to do it that way. That’s the point I am making: I have the ultimate power. But we are raising my kids.
I think the point is, though, that even after all of the talking and explaining etc, there are some families in which the parents/grandparents wouldn’t care what you wanted and do it their own way anyway. In some cases it doesn’t matter, but in some cases it matters a lot.
No, I don’t think I am. What I think the OP needs to take away is that a grandparent - grandchild relationship is possible, even in the presence of a difficult grandparent, but only if the parents can get it togtether in terms of their own boundaries. I expect his wife would agree with me actually, based on what little we know.
But I haven’t seen any direct evidence that the grandmother is so out of bounds as to warrant shunning, and I haven’t seen any direct evidence that the OP is a reliable narrator – quite the opposite, he says so himself. The fact is that the grandmother did not give the child the necklace: she asked if she might and then did not persist as I understand it.
That is not what I said, it certainly is not what I think. I said that people who do not might reconsider marrying out of a closed community. There are enough of them
Yes, it is. And I presume that in giving it to a child one would explain that the meaning was for the giver. If the meaning was “the Jews killed Christ” to a child of an interfaith marriage I could certainly see either not accepting it or at the very least not giving it to the child until the grandmother was dead.
Again, like the comment above, you have to read that comment in its context. By that time the highjack was in full swing and I was not talking about the OP at all.
Well, of course. My only point is that often my impression is that these choices are unilaterally made and imposed, and in that situation one is at least in part setting oneself up. The trouble taken to get consensus really is worth it in the long run.
Neither of those things is true of me actually. Many of my relatives are assholes and at least two have significant mental health issues. I am lucky that I have clear (if alternate) boundaries and that I know how to maintain them.
