The second article does imply that whites (who are considered as wealthier, more educated, more sophisticated, etc.) are treated as superior. I don’t doubt that. But what about the context?
A lot of this sort of things happens in a very specific situation. One example. Whites travel/live in some far flung place where poverty is the norm. They go to some clubs frequented by white males. Mating games begin. Whites go home with their new mates. (Of course there are other examples and this is a gross simplification.)
But let’s see, these are ‘common’ in some specific situation and environment where poverty is the prevailing condition and whites represent the opportunity to escape it. Because of the colonial history, social status still plays an important part. It is undoubtedly still true that in some parts of the world, locals do treat foreigners better than they do their fellow countrymen for whatever reason. And I don’t doubt for a second that climbing the social status could be a motivating factor.
But even in this scenario, I don’t buy the idea that climbing the racial ladder is the reason. Everything else being equal, I can’t accept that they (the local women in the above example) feel that they are ‘racially’ inferior. Insecure, maybe. Low self-esteem, probably. In a different setting, the attraction factor may shift to different more ‘normal’ ones like physical, emotional, etc.
Of course we can go back and forth on this. It all comes down to what your and my definition of ‘admiration of whites’ means.
Let’s just say I value your input and we basically see the same thing but we interpret it differently.
I can actually name one, Vietnamese actor Dustin Nguyen who was quite the pin-up when 21 Jump Street was popular. I should know, I had a poster of him right over my bed in the 80’s.
Now for my wish list of asian men who deserve hunk status but don’t really get it:
Sing Ngai - from Taiwan, who was in The Matrix Reloaded
Tak Sakaguchi - from Japan. thinking and nearly every other male who in the scifi/horror/action film Versus with this guy
Taro Yamamoto - also from Japan, was in the movie Battle Royale
Hell don’t get me started. I could go on all night.
looks over list for a moment, decides to go take a cold shower
You’ve said this a couple of times and haven’t produced evidence. You’ve pointed to the relative dearth of AM/WF relationships but ignore that this could have many contributing factors, including Asian men not finding “white” women attractive.
Really. 30 years of experience where and with whom? Looks I’ll give you, but in your wife’s birthplace I am surrounded by some of the most contemptable women on earth. Not all of them, of course, but in general I can hardly call them morally or mentally “better” than white women. You might be surprised what they have to say when they’re not speaking English.
And the fact is, Crafter_Man, that if you made those judgments based solely on the fact that I’m of European rather than Asian heritage, you’re guilty of racial prejudice at the very least.
You know absolutely nothing about me other than the fact that I have told you I’m ‘white’, and you automatically assume that my dislike of being told I am not as intelligent, more of a bitch, have worse morals, am less attractive, and more mentally ill than someone whose ethnicity is Asian is evidence in favor of your racial prejudice?
You have no idea of my education, you don’t know what kind of person I am, you’ve never seen my picture or met me, and you think your assumptions about those things are valid because I told you my ancestors were European and not Asian. Who’s the one being ignorant here?
You made some pretty sweeping statements about my race, which I didn’t take kindly to, and you think that’s bad demeanor? Would it still be bad demeanor if my ancestors came from Nigeria, and you said that black people were usually ‘less intelligent, more bitchy and less moral’ than white people?
The problem with your attitude, Crafter_Man, is that you’re making a snap judgment based on race and nothing else. That you make your racial judgments against ‘white people’ does not make it any less ignorant or more acceptable.
That I don’t like being judged by my race does not make me an unintelligent, ugly bitch with no morals.
Mods: I apologize, as I know this is not GD. Please move if you fell it’s appropriate.
Catsix: A few things:
As stated in my first post, I think – on average – Asian women are less bitchy, had better morals, etc. In no way did I make a “sweeping judgment” and imply all “white” women are bitchy, etc.
There are real, observable behavioral and physical differences between people of different ethnicities. (Ask any sociologist.) Most are very subtle, albeit real. And differences can be mostly attributed to environmental influences (culture, upbringing, social expectations, etc.). But it’s a statistical phenomenon, which (in a nut shell) means there’s a good chance any one person does not exhibit these behaviors. Again, the operative phrase is “on average.”
I couldn’t care less about political correctness. If I observe behavioral differences amongst members of an ethnic group, I won’t pretend they don’t exist.
I am entitled to my opinion.
My comment to you was in half-jest. Obviously I don’t know you from Adam. (So much for trying to make a witty reply…)
Everyone is prejudice to one degree or another, including you. Get over it.
How do you define “ignorant”? Am I “ignorant” because my opinion does not match your opinion?
At this point, I don’t think I can even say it’s ignorance.
It’s been pointed out to you that it’s nothing more than racial prejudice to assume things about intelligence and personality along racial lines, yet you stick to the belief that race has something to do with intelligence and personality.
The fact that you think European descent women are ‘on average’ less intelligent than Asian descent women is insulting. The color of my skin and the ethnicity of my ancestors have absolutely nothing to do with my intelligence, and although you have the right to opine about ‘White women not being as smart as Asian women’, it makes you look no less racist to me than you would if you said ‘Black women are inherently less intelligent than White women.’
You may not be judging me specifically, but you judged my ethnicity, and that’s wrong. If you think being told that is ‘political correctness’, you’re quite mistaken. You’re being told that the things you said are insulting to me, as a woman of European descent, and all you can say is ‘get over it’?
All the ‘on averages’ in the world (which you have provided no cite for other than your '30 years anecdotal experience) won’t make your opinions about ‘white women’ any less racist.
No, your attitude is racist because you think you can assume something about the average intelligence of a group of people based on nothing but their looks.
Do you think the statement “On average, Black women are not as intelligent as White women.” is at all racist?
Some of the responses to the OP don’t seem to realise the power of cultural and social conditioning. Having studied sociology and psychology for years, I may see the world from a somewhat bigger picture than others. I have had to explain to a friend that there is an average trend:women look for mates that are taller than them, more educated than them, older than them and richer than them but this does not mean that we are necessarily in control of this and yes there are many people who don’t follow this trend (self included).
When I lived in Japan - in the rural North - I was definitely attracted to many Japanese men. In rural Japan, men are still meant to do the traditional thing and marrying a western women is not included. Although there is some reluctance, Japanese women can get away with marrying western men as they aren’t expected so much to do the traditional thing. There is also an attitude that western men, more specifically white men but black as well are a real fashion accessory - I’ve heard girls talking about getting a foreigner (and they don’t mean Phillipino or Korean) for a boyfriend because it would look cool. There is also an element of excitement - where rural Japanese girls are not encouraged to have careers etc, they end up concentrating on the more shallow persuits of fashion.
In rural Japan, there is definately a hierarchy of preference for countries: the US being at the top and the middle East being somewhere near the bottom.
I also agree with those who have noted that many western men go specifically to asian countries to get laid as much as possible (I have heard them saying this on the plane on the way over!). I have not heard any western women saying this, and I didn’t think this before going to live there.
Look, catsix, I find Asian women to be sexy, smart, attractive, and good natured. Is that a crime? If a woman told you she thought Italian me were sexy, smart, and handsome, would you call her a racist? Well?
Wow, a GD thread inspired by lil’ ole newbie me. Just out of curiousity, I wonder how well it would sit with the posters who feel so free to speak plainly about the negativity of wm/af couples(or anyone else for that matter) were I to ask the same question about bm/wf couples(about the same ratio) and then gave a bunch of convoluted psychosocial mental masturbation to backup my predjudices, " she’s pissing off mommy and daddy, white men are portrayed as uncool in the media. Can’t dance, jump, no ass, speak with a nasal twang(you know, Dave Chapelle’s entire routine). Incidentally, I call bullshit on all aforementioned grander explanations for the prevalence of wm/af couples and their use as backup for something much more base. I think the elephant in the room is alot more pedestrian than "marrying up, blah, blah…etc. It’s good old fashioned, why is she with thatinsert deragatory racial epithet here and not me jealousy. Ugh, this is turning into a rant and not much of a contributionsteps down off the box, I just want my sacred cow, dammit ;)…oooh and some Camembert, the wine is delicious. Debate away, though, I’m sure dating/marrying habits will be little changed. Cheers.
Look Crafter, my response may not have been as confrontational, but you should still answer it. Are you basing what you said on, say, living in an Asian country where you know the language? Because I am and I think your stereotypes, other than thinness and maybe family orientation, are pretty much full of crap. Ohio, huh? You probably only see the face of Asian women as represented by foreign students and first-gen immigrants, a totally non-representative sample. Trust me, there are plenty of stupid, bitchy, morally degenerate Asian women to bring down your “average” figures.
While I have little patience for stereotypes, I must say that some of them are indeed popular perceptions – mostly products of culture, certainly not race as such. That doesn’t necessarily make them true, but it means that a sizeable number of people may think they are true.
You’ll have a VERY hard time finding reliable cites on this matter. I apologize in advance because I am about to quickly jot down some of my impressions based on my experience as a
Western male (not quite “white” though)
who has lived in Hong Kong for seven years and travelled the Far East quite extensively
who does not suffer from “yellow fever” or any such stereotype-driven fantasies (my view is that good-looking is good-looking regardless of race)
There is no doubt that on average moderately well-off Westerners get women here in Asia more easily than they would back home. I would flag up most of what Jthunder said and linked on this matter, and although they stated it very poorly, I also have to support these posters’ comments:
Leaving aside nonsense about the “racial scale” and so forth, there is no doubt that the above statements, although poorly worded, do contain elements of truth. Chinese society, for example, emphasizes marriages of convenience over marriages for love, when the two are in conflict (of course, the ideal marriage meets both criteria).
The first thing that struck me about Asia is that a certain segment of Asian women do indeed, consider Westerners to be more desirable targets. However there is also a proportion who actively dislike Westerners; as in most matters the picture is mixed. On the other side of the mirror, Western women with blonde hair and large breasts are particularly appreciated by the men here, for the obvious reasons that blonde hair and large breasts tend to be quite rare in Asian countries. However Western women are far less involved with Asian mates than Western men are. In both cases, men and women, being Western is associated with higher status – Western prostitutes and hostesses across Asia on average are able to charge MUCH higher prices than Asian counterparts, although being a Western woman in other fields of work may be somewhat of a disadvantage at times. There isn’t much emphasis on Western women otherwise, the overwhelming action seems to involve Western men and local girls (much to the bitterness of Western women living in Asia, who often complain they can’t find men – but then again that’s the same line you hear from NYC women so who knows).
The second thing that struck me is that it is very, very easy to get an Asian girlfriend in Asia if you happen to be a Western man with a healthy wallet and passport. Looks, though they may help, are not strictly necessary: sexy young women with ugly, fat, slobby Westerners in some cases decades older are not an uncommon sight around these parts, and are in fact the subject of frequent derision (i.e. comments such as “there’s no way he could land himself a chick that hot back home”).
The third thing that struck me is that the “yellow fever” phenomenon among Western men is completely out of control. I have seen respectable business men and leaders of industry even, senior executives of all ages start foaming at the mouth and pawing the ground at the mere mention of a business trip to, say, Singapore, one of the Asian capitals of inter-racial relationships. Having been on a couple such expeditions, I sought to understand why Asian women drive a large segment of Western expats wild. As we were out doing the obligatory partying, I unabashedly asked my friends and business acquaintances what qualities they admired so much in Asian women (as they perceive them) that they would pant after them like dogs in heat, forgetting propriety and even wives/girlfriends a short flight away.
There are no doubt stereotypes at work – the most popular responses I got had to do with Asian girls as submissive, exotic, beautiful, and more willing to “party”. I have no doubt these stereotypes exist; whether they are accurate is a different matter entirely.
I then decided to look at the various women that these men were hooking up with as we went from locale to locale. I reached the tentative conclusion that these men were infatuated with a fictional ideal, not necessarily with the women in question. While some of the girls were definitely very attractive, good looks or even sex appeal were not the rule – being Asian was. Being rather more sober than my companions, I got the impression after a while that the women were out hunting for something specific, Western and with a full wallet. Conversations I had with some of the women suggest to me these girls are a lot smarter than they let on with their giggles and teasing, pseudo-submissive behaviour – behaviour that tended to dwindle away as soon as I let them understand I wasn’t there to dick around like the average drunken Westerner.
The men either aren’t very smart (appreciated mainly for their money and passport), or they are simply indulging in their fantasies with the available talent not caring why it’s available.
Regarding Asian women being more attractive, more intelligent, less bitchy, etc., than Western women, that is a complete and utter myth that I won’t even bother to address. As for liking skinny women, that is a personal preference – while Asian women do indeed tend to be of slimmer build than Western women, I don’t think it explains the expat male yellow fever phenomeon.
I’ve written down these impressions quickly and am short of time, I’d like to point out that the above deals with my impressions of perceptions and not necessarily of factual reality, and I hope no one misinterprets the sample of women discussed here as in any way representative of Asian women in general.
Now this is a very pertinent angle - the issue of “exoticness”. All anecdotal again, but I am told that dark haired women are prized far more in Scandinavia, due to be rarer than the blonde norm.
In Saudi, I was told the “highest price” in terms of marriage would be had for a naturally blonde woman with green eyes, as that’s the most rare combination.
But back to the OP - and trying to tread around the usual eggshells of “race” and “height” - I would say that for me, I do tend to go for taller, bigger men with rugged features. It appears to me from my experience that Asian men generally are somewhat shorter in stature than Western men.
I know we’ve had many heated debates about this issue - I remember the notorious thread where an Asian lady thought to be a transexual was described as “tall for her race” leading to a total flamefest - but female friends living in Japan, eg, do moan to me that they can’t get large enough clothing sizes and shoe sizes, and have to buy bras online. This could suggest that a criticial mass of Asian ladies are more “petite”, and that if a larger amount Western men have a preference for petite ladies than Western women do for petite men, it would lead to a disparity in relationship numbers as mentioned in the OP.
But there are many exceptions to this, including one of my current objects of adoration, 7 foot plus Chinese basketball star Yao Ming.
