Hey Abe, I’m glad there’s another white guy in Hong Kong who isn’t a total degenerate.
Just as a bit of trivia, Harisu was born a man. Does her transgendered status affect the whole WM/AF/AM/WF/TMI discussion at all? Probably not, but how else am I going to show off my knowledge of K-Pop?
I’ll be marrying an asian woman myself next month. She’s marrying me because as a Canadian I’m submissive and a freak nasty in bed. :eek:
Why am I marrying a Korean woman? Because we met each other, fell in love, so on and so forth. I live in Korea and so meet more Korean women than women of other nationalities. If I lived in Belgium I’d probably be marrying a Belgian woman.
One of my fiancee’s friends is a Canadian woman with a Korean boyfriend. I don’t know which situation is more common in this country. In Canada, most of my Asian(-descendant) friends dated non-asian partners, regardless of gender. I think most of this is just the law of probability at work.
But what about white males who specifically seek out asian females? I have known people with a “thing” for asian women, but I’m not that way myself. Um, maybe I should be honest here… I don’t have a special “thing” for asian women, but I think I do have a “thing” for women of every race and color. They’re all lovely… white, black, brown, yellow, beige, ecru… I’d agree with istara that exoticness is very attractive. Of course the most beautiful woman in the entire world is Korean, but I may be a biased judge.
I think a lot of men have specific turn-ons, such as red hair, or large breasts, or being asian. I guess that’s pretty harmless as far as it goes. Maybe it’s a bit less harmless in other cases, such as the situation Abe described. Asian is just the fetish du jour, as promoted by hollywood and internet porn sites.
As for the psychological traits being attributed to asian women- reading those causes an alarm bell to go off in my mind. “Submissive”? I only wish. No, actually, on second thought I don’t. “Family-oriented”? What, are you looking for a woman who knows how to perform che-sa? I can’t help but feel that the terms are euphemisms for something darker, i.e. “Family-oriented” = she’ll stay at home and do housework. And who came up with the terms in the first place, an internet mail-order bride company that has to clear its old stock before the 2004 models hit the shelves?
I don’t know whether I’ve contributed to the discussion or if I’m just rambling, but anyhow that’s all I have to say.
Quite the contrary. I haven’t ignored that explanation, but I do think it’s implausible. I say that as an Asian man who has spent his lifetime amongst Asians. I say that based on many years of hearing Asian men talk about the women they find attractive, and hearing them complain about white women being unwilling to date them. While there are doubtlessly some who feel no attraction toward white women, I’ve yet to encounter one.
Rejecting a hypothesis is not the same as ignoring it, jsgoddess. Not by a long shot.
As Abe said, this is the sort of subject matter for which it would be difficult to find reliable cites either way. If you’re going to expect a formal cite from me, then I hope you’re prepared with scientific studies to support your claim that Asian men do not find white women to be attractive.
I don’t have such a cite because I do not make that claim. You have repeatedly said that white women do not find Asian men attractive. I have asked for your proof for that and said that the very limited evidence available could have other causes, including possibly Asian men not finding white women attractive. That isn’t the same as me saying “Asian men do not find white women attractive” which would be equivalent to your claim.
You are stating your opinion as fact. I am suggesting that the evidence isn’t clear. Those two things are in no way equivalent, nor do they bear the same standards of proof.
Julie
Pyrrho12 
JThunder:
It’s not a scientific study, but I posted this elsewhere including my journal and several other messages boards. Tons of women responded and expressed that although they loved Asian men (Especially Japanese ones) they had difficulty finding boyfriends. I’ve also never known any of my male Asian friends to be single for long - White girls are always chasing after them.
On this board also many women have posted and said that Asian men they knew prefered other Asians than them.
I think that a lot of Asian men find white women attractive, but many of them won’t date Asian women for reasons I listed earlier.
Maybe we just run with two completely different types of people, but in my experience, there are more white females interested in asian men than vice versa. I’ll see if I can get an online poll set up somewhere and we can spam the link around to various places and see what the results are.
Oh, JThunder, to make things as fair as possible, why don’t you suggest the wording for the poll?
JThunder, as an Asian woman who has spent a lifetime with Asian men, I have yet to meet more than two who would actually consider pursuing a relationship with a non-Asian woman even though they all find non-Asian women attractive. During my countless discussions with my friends bemoaning their lack of dating situations, I point out to them that there are usually white girls interested in them also. But they always say something like, “Oh, that just wouldn’t work,” and never bother elaborating.
I just talked about this with another friend last night, and he is has been saying for months that his next girlfriend is going to be a white girl. He flirts with girls and they flirt back, but he never takes it any further than that. When I asked him why, he just said something about “forbidden fruit.” I tried to get him to tell me more, but he had nothing else to say.
Well, anecdotal evidence is always confusing. I would have to say, Ava and lilbtagna, that I have observed something rather different from what you put forward.
But I imagine it depends largely on the community you’re looking at. It’s entirely likely that in well integrated international communities Asian and Westerners of both sexes mingle just fine. However, most communities are probably not well integrated.
A Korean friend of mine moved to California from Hong Kong a few years ago. He’d previously attended university in the US. His comments were interesting. First of all let me point out this is not a small fellow – he is solidly built and about 5’11". Secondly, although a native of Seoul he is quite westernized, speaks perfect English, etc. Thirdly, he is extremely outgoing, sociable, and loves women: I feel I must mention that he had the pleasure of roughing up Leonardo di Caprio in the bathroom at some ball because the scrawny fool was abusing a girl; he also ended up hanging out with Ron Jeremy at some porn gala, and reported that the guy treated the women around him like dirt (yet, the women just wanted more of it!). Fourth, he doesn’t share the rather silly machismo one finds among so many Korean men, and never went for subsmissive women that he could dominate.
Well my friend likes Western women almost as much as he likes Asian women, but has always had problems getting a Western girlfriend, in the US and outside. He said things usually didn’t go anywhere with a white girl unless he already knew the girl in question quite well (and even then he said it wasn’t smooth sailing). He specifically told me that as an Asian man he simply didn’t have the same or similar chances with Western women. He also commented that a lot of the Asian women when he was in university seemed to go for Western men, leaving Asian men in general in a bit of a problem.
Of course, I also have Western female friends who do like Asian men, almost invariably for their looks, skin tones, etc. But, from what I have seen in my travels, I don’t think such attitudes are a majority trend by any means.
english is taught as a first language in singapore; that is, other than some of the older generation everyone understands english. in fact, over here there is a derogatory term to describe local girls with caucasian men - sarong party girls(SPG), which is itself another unfair stereotype. yes, SPGs who hunt for their ang mohs with them fat wallets exists, but they are a niched minority viewed unkindly by other people, especially (i suspect) by wm/af couples that genuinely love each other.
i am not the best person to battle these assumptions but i would expect you dopers of all people should know enough not to imply or make sweeping generalisations about other people.
Very well put shijinn. AFAIK, this is the phenomenon I’ve seen in Indonesia (and some other SEA countries) as well.
The generalized assumptions, speculations and the racial ladder issue are the things that really bug me.
I think it has something to do with people finding each other attractive. Some Asian girls look really hot. Hence, were I not married I might hit on some of them. FTM, I’d hit on girls of every race just to be PC. Inupiats? Fine. I’ll fly up there and nail one of them also.
I do seriously think it’s physical attraction.
Which reminds me, Eurasian chicks are pretty hot… 
It’s sad that people still make a huge deal out of “interracial” dating. Well, that is unless you actually mean your daughter is dating a timber wolf.
This is not the point - Why do you think some Asian girls look hot?
It’s the reason behind what we find attractive - the bigger picture stuff.
Why do Asian girls think Western guys are hot? Why do Western men go to Asia to get girls (whom they find hot)?
There may be some Asian women who are unconsciously looking for their ticket out, some not so unconsciously, some not at all.
There seems to be a big difference between experiences of a westerner in an Asian country and a person of Asian decent in a Western country.
Very nice, very politically correct and my heart swells at the deafening chorus of PC agreement that followed your post, but have you read fully the messages you are criticizing? Or have you just had a nice little knee-jerk? You’ll note that as far as my comments go, I was looking into the attitudes of expat men who like to chase Asian girls, in that particular case the SPGs since we were in Singapore and they are fairly forthcoming. I believe Space Vampire also did not engage in sweeping generalizations, but that would require a re-read and I have no time now.
looks around uh oh, someone help me, i’d wandered into GD! oh well…
firstly, you mentioned how some of the local girls prefer westerners (oddly by saying how western prostitutes costs more).
then you reinforced on how easy it is to get an asian girlfriend if you’re rich.
by ‘thirdly’, it has been implied(?) to me that asian women likes westerners for their money and the ‘escape’ out of singapore.
your little bit of disclaimer at the end is not enough to erase away the stereotype you’ve implied to the various races. how would you have felt if i had given the same rundown on adulterous western men ending with ‘insert country here, one of the western capitals of sex starved, otherwise ‘respectable’ business men’ ?
the main drive of my earlier post is to clarify that while such girls do exists, they are a very small (albeit well known) group that
hangout at tourist hideouts, instead of that implied by your rundown; and as a multi-racial country your comments will hurt more genuine couples than those you seem to target.
What do you mean by “genuine couple”?
I’m not saying that people of mixed ethnicities don’t fall in love and become a couple (I’m assuming this is what you mean).
However, although there are Asian women who deliberately set out to get western men for their bank balance/passport out etc, there are also Asian women living in Asian countries who are genuinely (not consciously for money etc) only attracted to Western men - why is this so? what social conditioning is acting on them? They may have never explored their reasons for this and thus it is mostly an unconscious preference but is it not that they see Western men as a better prospect than Asian men and if so why?
People all have preferences for mate attraction but we need to explore the underlying reasons why if we really want to know what is really going on in a society.
(There is nothing wrong with thinking someone is a better prospect - men and women do this all the time whether they are of the same ethnicity or not.)
Next time, I suggest you prepare yourself before you wander in. You may save yourself a couple of moments such as the ones about to ensue.
Here, in GD, it usually pays to avoid techniques like selective reading, selective quoting, and misrepresentation, and it’s always to your advantage to read something for comprehension the first time round. So, let me repost a couple of my comments relevant to your unfounded objection:
“That doesn’t necessarily make them [stereotypes] true, but it means that a sizeable number of people may think they are true.”
“There is no doubt that on average moderately well-off Westerners get women here in Asia more easily than they would back home.”
No problem with the above I trust. Now, explain to me exactly what is wrong about me stating that “some of the local girls prefer westerners”. You notice that even you included the “some” in there? And you noticed where I wrote:
"The first thing that struck me about Asia is that a certain segment of Asian women do indeed, consider Westerners to be more desirable targets. However there is also a proportion who actively dislike Westerners; as in most matters the picture is mixed. "
My comments on prostitutes and hostesses was the following:
“being Western is associated with higher status – Western prostitutes and hostesses across Asia on average are able to charge MUCH higher prices than Asian counterparts, although being a Western woman in other fields of work may be somewhat of a disadvantage at times.”
So you have misrepresented what I really said. If you knew about some of the ways business is conducted in Asia, for example, you would know the importance of the hostess club in business dealings – hostesses are essentially “dates” that are affiliated to and work for a gentlemen’s club, where rather wealthy Asian men (but also, occasionally, Westerners) go to enjoy female companionship, a lot of booze, and sometimes (but not always) karaoke. This process helps to lubricate relationships and smooth out deals. Hostesses frequently double as prostitutes if their client and the price are both right, and many an outrageous thing happens in some of these clubs. The hostesses that fetch the highest price, just like the high-class prostitutes that are able to charge the most, tend to be Western ones. This indicates a definite demand. My own informal research in the matter (not to mention popular opinion) suggests that Asian men who can afford Western hostesses/high-class prostitutes are considered to have greater status than their counterparts.
Clear now?
It is. But, again, you may benefit from a closer reading of what I wrote:
“it is very, very easy to get an Asian girlfriend in Asia if you happen to be a Western man with a healthy wallet and passport. Looks, though they may help, are not strictly necessary: sexy young women with ugly, fat, slobby Westerners in some cases decades older are not an uncommon sight around these parts, and are in fact the subject of frequent derision (i.e. comments such as “there’s no way he could land himself a chick that hot back home”).”
Did I say that it is very easy to land any Asian woman if you’re an expat with money? No, I said it’s very easy to get an Asian girlfriend, which it is. Not to attract Asian women in general simply by dint of wallet and passport, by any means.
I have implied no stereotypes related to race – if anything I discussed matters of culture, quite a different thing. There is a definite segment of Asian women who behaves exactly as you described above, and the error you made is assuming that I was talking about all Asian women instead of one segment of Asian women, the segment who like money and passports.
Amsterdam is a sex capital. So is Bangkok. Saying that a city is a sex capital of any kind (interracial or not) does not imply anything about the entire population of the city (or of the country, or of the culture or race), rather it describes activities and attractions that the city may be considered famous for. Singapore, because everyone speaks good English and there is excellent hygiene in place (not to mention that Singapore women tend to be an attractive mix of genetics, and that the government turns a blind eye to a form of illegal but well regulated prostitution), is indeed one of the top destinations for expat men who like Asian women.
It astounds me that someone who lives in Singapore shouldn’t find these items clear immediately. Do I need to mention the “four floors of whores”, which is a major attraction for the men travelling to Singapore I described earlier? Facts of life.
That’s possible, but unless you can demonstrate that I was not telling the truth or forming an argument based on facts, I can only regret that some people may misunderstand what I was talking about.
I would never have guessed that a simple question posed in the OP could have incited so much hostility and debate. I had thought that he was lamenting on seeing more westernised asian girls being with white men than westernised asian men with white girls, rather than refering to the sex industry or those who marry for other agendas, which I would assume will always exist, especially in a less developed country where marrying up (not just to white people) is the only way some can hope to escape their own plight.
Back to the topic at hand, being raised in an asian community in a western country, I never really thought of dating those not of asian origin (east-asian in particular). It’s not because I did not find non-asians attractive (I drool over Brad Pitt as much as the next girl) but it wasn’t ever on my mind as a choice, and not having them go after me also prevented me from consciously thinking about it. It was also the fact that an another asian would know the culture, what I go through as an asian raised in a western society and would understand me better, in the end that is what I want in a partner, after all it is the personality that matters in a relationship is it not?
But recently, there has been a mass exodus for my asian girlfriends and I, and we all independently and from different paths (I make a point of this because I’ve had some misguided fool comment that maybe we all wanted to ‘copy’ each other and it was seen as a status thing that if one girl can get a non asian boyfriend then we should be able to do that too) ended up with a non-asian partner. We have discussed this amongst ourselves and all agreed that we would find it hard to go back to asian men.
The reason? We find that the western men so much more romantic and able to express their emotions and be more attentive to our needs. The asian guys we have been with although have been nice and wonderful seem to have an emotional block that comes being raised in an asian family, and despite having liberated views they still cannot fully show that they appreciate us. ( I use the word show because I know that deep down they do appreciate us, but when push come to shove, it’s not enough.)
Hope this is not too long winded and personal for this debate.
And I do perceive the lower perscentage of AM/WF compared to AF/WM is due to the fact that a lot of the asian males being a little intimidated by the thought of going after a caucasion female (heard first hand from a few male asian friends) and also I do think the height is a major issue…just as being fat or skinny is a factor for some, height is an issue as well…(Generalisation alert) I think most girls would want their partner to be taller than they are.
good grief Abe, but does your reply have to be so long? …
that alone would have sufficed, as what i had wanted to do was to clarify that the segment was smaller than implied, but no…, here in Great Debates it’s all about the debate instead of staying on the topic at hand, as i can see you’d chosen to focus on the ‘misrepresentation’ issue and a needless discourse on prostitution.
cite? (i’d always wanted to say that! ) assuming you’d meant all women i will have to question this. are you saying there are no equivalent places where the poorer western women might socialise with the richer folks? not even hostesses?
again i’m highlighting what i saw - you put forth as the ‘first thing’ that some asian women do consider westerners to be more desirable targets, then in the same paragraph gave an example of how western prostitutes are valued more. i personally find that a very odd example to give, comparing a prostitute to a businessman.
moreover, there is no need for you to give a lengthy explanation (in your previous post) about prostitution in general because i have at no time disputed your experiences with that.
my quotes was to highlight what you said which i took issue on, what is the sense of quoting everything that you’d posted? do not imply that i’d not read your posts beforehand. you had put forth the ‘three things’ to support what Kreg and Giggle Gaggle had said, peppered with disclaimers here and there. (again, please note that i’m merely highlighting the first sentence of each of your paragraph, anyone who has not done so can turn to page two for the entire thing)
now instead of merely implying you have come out to specifically state that an asian country’s major attraction to these ‘business men’ are prostitutes, in a thread about white male / asian female couples, while trying to add on to what Kreg and Giggle Gaggle had said. if you been clear in your original post that all you’re interested in was prostitutes i would not have bothered with it. however it was not, and i felt it necessary to clarify on the implications that is insensitive to the genuine interracial couples that is directly related to this thread.
In the interest of spirited debate, some right-wing commentaries:
http://www.isteve.com/IsLoveColorblind.htm
http://www.fredoneverything.net/AsianWomen.shtml
http://www.fredoneverything.net/Reimer.shtml