Why SYTYCD is better than AI (very long)

Cafe Society
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With the finale of So You Think You Can Dance (SYTYCD) upon us, and with the departure of Paula Abdul from American Idol, this seemed like a good time to put down some thoughts that have been rattling around my brain recently. Yes, I have too much time on my hands.

It’s only natural to compare the two shows: they’re produced by the same company. In the words of Executive Producer Nigel Lythgoe, SYTYCD was conceived as “American Idol of dance.” They have roughly the same format and same goal – amateurs perform; America votes; somebody gets eliminated until your favorite singer/dancer is crowned. But they are so different in style that it’s worth comparing the two – and I think AI could take some notes from its little brother.

Format
A subtle difference, but an important one. In AI, viewers are in complete control. Their votes are the sole determination of who gets eliminated each week. In SYTYCD, votes determine the ranking, but the judges eliminate one pair of dancers from the bottom 3 (until we reach the last few shows, when the judges lose this power, and votes are the sole determination of who gets eliminated). The SYTYCD judges can’t completely prevent a Sanjaya-like travesty (unless that unfortunate person wound up in the bottom 3), but the SYTYCD judges do have more power to shape the final group of contestants.

AI has “theme weeks”. SYTYCD randomly assigns dance styles to couples. In theory, this forces both singers and dancers to be versatile; but it works better on SYTYCD. Singers have more ability to bend the theme to suit their own style, whereas there’s no way to bend a waltz to make it hip-hop.

Hype
No comparison. AI is a monster. The contestants get on magazine covers. We get into flame wars about whether a contestant is getting votes because of their religious background, or in spite of their sexual preference. The stakes are higher – an AI contestant has a good chance at becoming rich and famous (Carrie Underwood), although they could very well be quickly forgotten (Taylor Hicks). The dancers on SYTYCD are anonymous before, during and after the show. Their highest hope is that they rise to the level of fame of a Louis Van Amstel or Cheryl Burke – and if you’re saying “who?”, that’s exactly my point.

So this is like comparing the NFL to Pop Warner football. But it would be Pop Warner football played by kids with NFL-level talent: just incredibly talented kids. having fun.

There’s no product placement on SYTYCD. The contestants aren’t forced to film cute commercials for Ford each week. The judges aren’t required to drink from Coke cups.

Contestants
Perhaps because of the absence of hype and the lower stakes, the dancers seem to be having more fun than the singers. They also always dance in pairs, so they naturally bond. (This is purely my own impression, of course). It would be interesting to imagine an AI where the singers only performed in duets or group numbers.

And because of their anonymity, somehow their personalities matter less. No dancers ever seem to grate. They never talk back to the judges. We know virtually nothing of their personal life – probably half of them are gay, and nobody cares.

Behind the Scenes
This is largely based on the difference between singing and dancing, so comparisons may be unfair. Too bad.

AI has singers and judges. SYTYCD has a third, vital component: the choreographer. The dancers are largely being judged on how well they execute the choreographer’s vision (very rarely, the judges will find fault in the choreography rather than the execution).

In AI, there are probably equivalent people backstage: vocal coaches and arrangers. They are kept completely and totally under wraps. We are led to believe that the singers are entirely responsible for the package of their performance, and so they get too much credit and too much blame for all aspects of that performance.

AI does have a completely useless feature, called the “celebrity mentor”. The mentor is almost always effusive in their praise of the contestant, provides little meaningful feedback, and sometimes is just there to plug their new album (coughmariahcarey)

Hosts
Both hosts are serviceable. Cat Deeley just loves everybody and wishes they could all win, and never banters with the judges, other than to toss from one to the next. Ryan Seacrest apparently sees his role as foil to Simon Cowell, unfortunately, which leads to my next point…

Judges
AI has built a cult of personality around its judges – witness the (mercifully) short-lived spotlit staircase entrance of the judges last season. The SYTYCD judges are relatively modest – one of the 3 spots is not even permanent but instead rotates among 3 or 4 alternates.

If Mary Murphy had left SYTYCD yesterday, would it have made the 11 o’clock news? Don’t think so.

There is no designated contrarian on SYTYCD – no one for the audience to boo. More often than not, all 3 dance judges see the same flaws, and the same greatness, in a given routine.

Judging
The SYTYCD judges are all former dancers and/or choreographers. As a result, their criticism is pointed and precise: they comment on footwork, heel leads, holds, lines, posture (along with more general impressions about passion and feeling). The AI judges are a bass player, a company executive, a songwriter, and a dancer who can sing a little. Their criticism tends to be more “didn’t feel it” “it was just a’ight”, “you rocked it”, “karaoke”, “cruise-ship”, and whatever gibberish comes out of Paula. The most technical criticism ever leveled: “pitchy”.

Again, singing is different from dancing. But each dance is a new creation, judged on its own merits. You never hear a SYTYCD judge say that a performance paled in comparison to something similar that Gwen Verdon did But a vocal performance is *always *compared to the original –it doesn’t need to be that way, but that’s what the AI judges do. Sometimes it’s a good thing (“you MADE IT YOUR OWN! WOO!”) sometimes not (“karaoke”, or “that song was too big for you” “Never do Stevie/Whitney”). .

Conclusion: I enjoy SYTYCD; I watch AI out of habit, but would enjoy it more if it was more like it’s dance counterpart.

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There might be news reports of people singing and dancing in the streets, praising the sky gods from the rooftops, and generally going insane with happiness.

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I enjoy Deeley as a host much more so than Seacrest. Like you said, Cat seems like she genuinely wishes they all could win. You’ll never get that disdain that Seacrest showed to Norman Gentle with her.

I agree with everything you said. This last season was the first year I watched American Idol (if it weren’t for the fiancee I’d never watch it) but I look forward to SYTYCD every year.

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She may be annoying as hell, but you can at least tell she knows what she’s talking about. There is only one judge there that I think rambles on without saying anything but he isn’t a permanent judge.

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True, but her knowledge of non-ballroom styles isn’t great, so she is left only to scream or not depending on if she was entertained. When the style is ballroom, she nitpicks things the average viewer doesn’t notice and is blind to the overall entertainment value.
The difference is noticeable.

In the end, though, we watch it off our DVR and skip past most of the judges’ commentary. I’ll listen to Nigel, and Adam Shankman when he’s on, but not Mary more than 20-30 seconds*, and never Mia Michaels or Lil C.

SYTYCD is more original than AI, has more actual content than AI, and is generally more happy and positive than AI.

*: She has actual content at first, but after that it’s either continued negativity or screaming.

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I think it would be quite interesting if AI would show more backstage about how the singing performance is created – how the singer works with their arranger and coach. I could see them deciding that A Flat would be a better key than C; how a bluesy arrangement would fit the singer’s style, so let’s pump up the bass, add some horns…backup singers? Stuff like that. But that wouldn’t fit with AI’s emphasis on personality – it’s all about the singers and the judges.

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While I still enjoy American Idol for some inexplicable reason, I realized during the last season of SYTYCD that I really prefer it over AI. There are three things that make it more enjoyable for me:

(1) Everyone appears to be having fun. These people dance because they LOVE to dance. On AI, I get the impression that at least half of the contestants sing because they want to be famous. They don’t actually have any specific passion for music.

(2) The judges are completely different. SYTYCD judges are totally engaged, as if they actually enjoy their job, whereas the judges on AI appear routinely bored. SYTYCD judges are sometimes harsh but offer concrete areas for improvement, while still being supportive. I truly believe SYTYCD judges want everyone on that show to be successful. By contrast, AI judges offer vague comments like “it was just ok for me” and frequently resort to personal insults.

(3) Ryan Seacrest may be a totally competent host, but he has none of the … joie de vivre that Cat Deeley has. Her concern for the contestants seems so genuine and she’s much cuter than Ryan :slight_smile:

Anyway, I am a little fearful that two seasons of SYTYCD in one year is overkill, but I’ll definitely be watching.

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Nitpick: Dances were not random this season. They showed the dancers drawing their partner out of a hat, but never the dance.

Other than that, I agree completely. Although I could deal with Nigel reigning in the Creepy Old Man Ogling Young Dancers vibe. And Mary’s voicebox being snipped. I agree 100% with garygnu– with ballroom her critiques are TOO technical, on everything else, they are too general (and over-enthusiastic).

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I guess I am the only one who is not a fan of Cat, but otherwise I do enjoy this show more than AI. One reason not mentioned is the dancers are HOT!! (I prefer the female persuasion, but I am guessing the same goes for the guys).

I think another reaons is simple, singers are everywhere, I mean music is pretty much ubiquiteous, but dance performances are harder to find. So I really feel as if I am getting my horizons expanded on SYTYCD, versus AI where much of the time I am wondering wy I am watching mediocre singers when there is much more enjoyabe, and easily accessible singers out there.

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“Your tests are in. I’m sorry, but you have SYTYCD.”

“Oh God! I knew I should have used a condom!”

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Good point. Every season there’s a breakdance routine that makes me go :eek:. And I love when they go cross-cultural, and do African, or Bollywood, or Russian Folk (yes, this year’s was not very good, but it could’ve been). The equivalent in AI would be to make the contestants sing opera, I suppose.

I also prefer the female persuasion, but Brandon’s solo last week did cause me to note that his body is pretty much perfect.

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One other difference- although we don’t get too involved in the contestants’ personalities on SYTYCD, it’s obvious that they’re much less delusional than the AI contestants. On AI, every bloody singer thinks that they’re God’s gift to music; you can be a good enough singer to try out and compete- and possibly even win- with no formal training, and too often their similarly delusional friends and families have kissed their asses for so long that the contestants actually believe that their off-key warbling will get them a record deal, and Simon just doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about. But with the dancers, their thousands of hours of training probably is what helps weed out the oafs that can’t keep time with a watch, from the real talent, pretty early on.

It’s so nice seeing the contestants get critiqued and not get all diva on the judges. It shows class and maturity, two words apparently don’t even appear in the AI Manifesto.

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There’s an article in The Washington Post today making the same point as the OP:

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I love AI, but I largely agree.

One area SYTYCD needs to watch is with charges of nepotism in picking the top 20. Benji and Lacey Schwimmer is the obvious case, of course, but Lauren was also a former production assistant. I believe there were other cases, but I’m mostly getting google hits for those two right now.

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Don’t care a thing about SYTYCD . I saw this post because the “forgotten guy” Mr. Hicks is in my google alerts as he is in many, many others.
Perhaps Mr. Hicks is not for the masses , he is for those of us who appreciate quality.
But he does have the top music video at AOL, and he is filling the seats at Grease every night. Guess someone remembers.

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Mightygodking did a bit on why you should watch SYTYCD (back when it was less popular.) One thing he said that I really remembered was that everyone on the show was really good, unlike on AI. Even when a professional could nitpick a dancer, they were always still good enough to be entertaining.

I remember this because the one time I watched AI, there was a top 5 or something contestant who actually forgot the lyrics of the song he was singing. I suppose he got that far on personality or because he was entertaining in other ways, but you’d never have that happen on SYTYCD. They’re all professionals.

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The thing that I remember, when I compare these two essentially incomparable shows is that AI is on a quest to crown not the best singer of their bunch (obviously) but the one who excites the audience the most. (Or offends them the least of the last two.) The intention is to create a superstar. When that doesn’t pan out (sorry Taylor Hicks fans) there’s still much more awareness of who the AI champ is because you can put music everywhere, and dance becomes the background of musical performance far more often in current entertainment than the other way around.

SYTYCD is on a quest to crown an excellent dancer who will then get some dancing opportunities. But there’s no such thing as a star dancer any more. There were once dance stars in ballet who people knew as a great, but no longer. The last really famous ballet dancer isn’t “just” a ballet dancer anymore himself. (Baryshnikov) As noted, maybe the SYTYCD kids might end up on another dance TV program, like Lacey (and occasionally Benjy) Schwimmer and Chelsie Hightower, but household name celebrity is not in the cards. They all know it. Their expectations reflect that.

Oh come on, Mary’s not that bad. You know you’re on the hot tamale train. Admit it.

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Mary may be obnoxious, but when she says a couple is on the hot tamale train, they react as if they’d just won the lotto and the Nobel Prize.

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Like Cat said a few episodes back, the SYTYCD people is a family. There is a genuine bond between contemporary contestants, past contestants, judges and choreographers. These are highly dedicated people with a huge passion for dance, something they all share while knowing that they are underdogs in the entertainment industry, compared to the likes of actors and musicians.
What’s bad about SYTYCD? Well, the cameras for one thing. The way they film the dances have, for the most part, been atrocious and actually ruined a couple of routines for me. Also, sometimes the dance people get a bit overwraught when it comes to handling emotional topics. All in all, it’s a great show and I hope it keeps delivering because I’ve become a dedicated fan.

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Good OP. I agree with everything.

I think that for some, a nice singing voice and singing in key can come completely natural and with some practice and fine-tuning, these qualities can make someone a great artist. With dancing, however, I think nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the serious contestants (all?) on SYTYCD have paid some serious dues in one way or another: broken toes, pulled muscles, hundreds of gallons of sweat, tears, blood, criticism, ostracism socially (when is it ever to be cool to be a male teenager dancer who’s likely gay?), you name it. Almost NONE of the AI contestants can even comprehend this type of dedication to their craft. It’s reflected in their personalities. When you see the dancers get judges’ feedback, they listen and nod and you actually see them get better. AI contestants talk back to the judges, make excuses and oftentimes act like spoiled children.

There’s a certain level of humility a person gets when they’re often knocked down having to pick themselves up again. I tend to see such humility on SYTYCD nearly 100% of the time.

AI for me is junk TV. SYTYCD is TV that I think enlightens me in an area about which I haven’t an idea (dance), and it entertains me while it’s doing it. Apples and oranges.