Women: How have you felt and reacted when a date/mate has made a sexual move you didn't want?

In My Humble Opinion
21

I had told a guy I met through okcupid that I had just gotten out of a relationship. I also said that, in spite of norms to the contrary, I didn’t want to do anything physical for our first few dates. He agreed not to be pushy.

We had dinner at TGIFriday’s and he seemed like a pretty cool guy. I went back to his apartment to hang out afterward, where we played guitar hero and smoked hookah with his roommates. They were pretty cool, and I love shisha. So I was having a really nice time. His roommates went to bed, and then he kissed me, which on its own I would actually have been okay with. But then he totally ruined it by making a neanderthalic swipe at my crotch. I stood up and immediately said, “Excuse me, I’ve gotta get going.” I grabbed my coat and pretty much ran out the apartment. I had driven my car there from TGIFs and I was sober, so I drove right home.

I don’t like to think what I might have done if we’d been having drinks. I probably would have driven drunk just to get away from there. I was seriously pissed that he didn’t take seriously what we had agreed on. Most of all I was pissed because he seemed like a really cool dude and would have been seriously good for me, if he didn’t display so little respect for me. He liked to LARP as an orc and painted himself green once a month. So there were regrets for what “might have been,” and feelings of having my trust violated.

I didn’t date anyone from okcupid again for a long time after that. Nowadays, if I’m ever on a date with a guy and I know I don’t want him to hug or kiss me, I will position my body and my purse so that approaching me isn’t going to happen.

22

Maggen,

Would you have felt differently if instead of reaching between your legs roughly, he’d touched your breasts non-roughly?
While I would never initiate sex with someone while they’re asleep without having previously discussed it with that person, I wonder why it is so often considered wrong by women. I think very few men would mind if a woman started sex while he was asleep and it’s common for a woman to wake a man up with oral sex (which means she started the sex when he was asleep), so what is offensive about starting sex with a woman when she’s asleep? Or is starting it not offenseive but going from Alpha all the way to Omega while she’s asleep the offensive part?

23

Because women are sometimes raped by intruders who break in while they’re sleeping, while pretty much no men worry about that, ever? I’m sorry, I don’t find being groped to be a sexy way to wake up; it would confuse and frighten me.

Many/most women take a bit more than a tit grope or crotch grope to get aroused and (separate issue) decide they want to have sex. It’s kind of disrespectful, not to mention painful, for a woman to have a penis stuffed inside her without a by-your-leave. And no, I’ve never woken my husband with a blowjob. Besides the fact that he’s not someone you want to startle awake, it’s kind of rude, since he’s never indicated to me (see previous statement re: do not startle awake) that it would be welcome.

24

If you have to ask this question, I’m not sure you’d ever understand the answer.

25

Instead of doing a “if you have to ask for the price, you can’t afford it”, you could try to do like ferret herder and provide a response or if you don’t think you can, just not say anything.

Even if I’m too dumb to understand, could you explain why a woman waking a man up by giving him oral sex is ok (unless you think that would be sexual assault or reprehensible) while a man waking a woman up by caressing her (intiating sex) isn’t? Issues of consent are the same as in both cases; the person on the receiving end of the initiation is asleep.

Ferret:
Who said anything about waking up with a penis inside oneself? I said “initiate sex”, which usually starts rather earlier than penetration, no?

If you went to bed with your spouse and were woken up because your spouse was caressing you, your first thought would be “someone’s broken into the house, my spouse isn’t there and I’m being raped” rather than “my spouse is initiating sex”?
Note that I’m absolutely not saying you’re wrong to not want it (in case this needs to be clarified). Doign this without having prior agreement would be a major boundary violation.

26

The way you know whether it’s ok or not is (like you said) to have that conversation beforehand and listen to what she says.

My husband and I have several times woken each other up through foreplay and nuzzling-type activities, and I’ve not had a problem when he does it, and he’s not had a problem with me doing it to/for him, because we talked about it, and said what was ok and what wasn’t. He’s never going to go too far while he’s waking me up, because he knows what I’m ok with and what I’m not.

If you aren’t close enough to someone to have that type of frank conversation about what you like and are comfortable with as far as sexual activities, then I question whether you should really be having sex with that person at all.

As far as the offensive part - there’s a few reasons for that.
Physically, it takes most women a while to get revved up, and being asleep hinders that process. That makes penetrative sex anywhere from uncomfortable to outright blazingly painful, which I’m sure you can imagine is not the best way to wake up and instantly be “in the mood.”

Psychologically, most women have a very real fear of being raped or molested by men. That fear comes naturally when you’re smaller and weaker than approximately 50% of the population, and have had it drilled into your mind over the course of at least 15 years that if a man wants to do something with/to you, most times you’re going to be shit outta luck if you want to contest it.

This seems to be a very difficult concept to get across to most men. I don’t think it’s something really explainable, except to perhaps smaller guys who got the shit beat out of them regularly in school, or perhaps someone who did time in prisons without the benefit of a gang to protect them.

It’s just a permanent low-grade twitch reflex that someone COULD hurt you if they wanted to, and you COULD NOT stop them. Makes things like non-consensual sexual advances by a partner that you’re supposed to be able to trust a lot harder to take.

27

Yeah, I think that if you were in a relationship with someone and you woke up to sexual contact or caresses, it would be a bit weird to assume it was an intruder breaking in.

28

See CrazyCatLady, this is a proper answer. One I can understand, even! I was much more informed by Lasciel than by your prissy dismissiveness.

29

I wake up poorly as well, generally. It takes me a while to come out of a dream (such that at first I’m trying to figure out why “reality” just changed), then figure out what day it is, even. I’m oriented to reality within a few seconds but still groggy and peeved at being awake. My husband does not wake me like that (he stopped trying after a few attempts at a “sexy caressing wake-up” many, many years ago when we first started sleeping together), so yes, feeling groped would produce a WTF?! reaction in me.

My husband has tried just rubbing my arm to wake me gently for sex, but I’m usually so groggy and tired that all I want to do is sleep. (Or suddenly I have to pee because my bladder is now telling me it’s time to go since I’m awake and all.) He’s also told me about times when I had generally just whimpered or balled up, when I didn’t even remember him trying to wake me for anything.

maggenpye cited a previous relationship where she was woken by PIV intercourse; I was referring to that. My own erogenous zones (any of them) don’t instantaneously turn on, either; they need a little triggering from the brain first. Grab my tit out of nowhere and it’ll probably annoy me. Once you’ve annoyed or irritated or startled me, there’s little chance to undo that quickly unless I’m willing to be convinced otherwise.

30

No, but as I’ve posted here before, after a few years of no contact he started stalking me and when confronted thought we could just pick up where he thought we’d left off.

I got the police onto him, his fiancee was very surprised.

31

You’re right about Maggen’s anecdote, I had forgotten it.

I understand why you wouldn’t want it. Thanks for your response.

32

Now to MichaelEmouse’s post.

The first mentioned crotch-grabbing boyfriend was very insistent on sex when he wanted it. I’d been through an abusive time as a teen and been date-raped at 15. I had low self esteem and didn’t feel I had the right to wait until I was in the mood.

This created a cycle where he would insist on sex more often, seeking validation of himself as a sex god and I would enjoy it less. An endless feedback loop between two intelligent but young people who did not have the maturity or ability to just say ‘no, we’re incompatible’.

So yes, he’d grab my tit - can you understand the emotive difference between that and me saying he’d caress my breast? Whether it was violent or not, it was always a grab at the tits or crotch.

He’d grab my tit because he was horny and my feelings didn’t matter.

If he had caressed my breast while telling me I was a sex goddess whose enjoyment mattered as much as his own (as a later boyfriend did) we would have enjoyed explosively good sex more often than he could have dreamed of (as the later BF and I did).

Freudian Slit answered the sleep thing as well as I could have (probably better). You even said it yourself - ‘talking about it first’. Second example hadn’t - his assumption was that having agreed to sex once, I had waived consent for all subsequent sex. He was horny, I didn’t matter.

Also, how would you feel about waking up with something inside whatever orifice you find most intimate and private, pumping away for someone else’s pleasure.

For most of the guys I’ve dated, any unwanted moves (like those kisses and caresses in the OP) are slightly awkward and over as soon as I say it’s too fast. Since I’ve grown up and gained in confidence, they are very rare indeed. Probably a combination of the changes in me and the fact that I’m dating older men who’ve also learned through their own experiences.

33

Getting a blow job is pretty much always more pleasurable than sleeping. Most men would rather get a blow job than have an extra hour of sleep.

For women, the stages of sex before you are really aroused (like, say, the state that you are in when you are asleep) aren’t particularly fun. Dry, un-aroused groping just isn’t worth being shaken from the sweet grip of sleep for, and it’s a harsh and unwanted transition from “mmmmmmm happy sleep” to “Hm. I’m awake an hour early and my husband isn’t going to be happy until he gets his rocks off, and I’ve got to make sure to get the kids lunches packed before they get to school and the dog needs to be let out and oh yeah, I better try to get wet so this dude has an easier time getting his dick in me so I can get on with my morning stuff and GOD I wish I were back asleep, I’m so freaking tired.”

If we somehow woke hot’n’heavy and minutes from orgasm, it’d probably be different.

34

If the other person didn’t have an honest and reasonable belief that I had given my consent by word or conduct to penetration while I’m asleep*, I’d press charges and if I did that in the same circumstances, charges should be pressed against me.

*I know that’s not the legal standard but it’s the one I’d use to press charges.

35

That wasn’t a possible response in the 80’s in New Zealand. For many people of either gender, it’s not a possible response now.

Besides - the person doing this says they love you. You definitely love them.

36

There have been two cases:

Most of the time, we’d be doing whatever, he’d go to a spot I didn’t want him to go to, I’d make it clear with body language that it wasn’t welcome at the time, we’d go on. For example, we were making out, he’d stick his hands under my clothes and they were cold… I’d move the hand back out, we’d go on, and eventually once I could tell his hands had warmed up I might even pull them in myself. No prob.
One case, one time. So I’ve been… dating? this guy a few times over a couple of months. At first I though they were dates, but since he jumps any time I try to take his hand, hasn’t even kissed me on the cheek, and generally stays about one yard away, I’m thinking maybe what he wants is “just friends” :confused:
Then one day he drops me off, shoves himself against me, sticks his tongue in my ear and whispers hoarsely “I can’t wait to try your bed”. I shoved him off me, slammed the door on his face and that was the end of the relationship. There were two reasons I didn’t break an alabaster vase on his skull: it’s illegal in most countries and I didn’t have one handy :mad:
In this case it wasn’t so much that the advances were sloppy and unwanted as that Jesus H. Christ, where I come from you kiss before you fuck!

37

How deeply do you sleep? When I wake, I’m sometimes still half in my dream, and disoriented about where I am, who I am, and who I’m with. And if I’m dreaming about, say hanging out with a male family member and I gradually become aware that someone is having sex with me? It’s a very unpleasant period of time while I try to sort out where I am and what’s going on (and that no, it’s not say Grandpa Bill taking me from behind without my consent).

For those men who don’t get it, assuming you and your partner are into playing with sex toys, how would you feel to wake up with an unlubed strap-on being inserted where the sun don’t shine?

38

Slit was talking about sexual contact and caressing and you mention penetration.

Are you saying that an unlubed strap-on being inserted anally is equivalent to a man having coitus with a woman which wakes her up or equivalent to a man caressing a woman which wakes her up?

In other words:
Unlubed strap-on=coitus while sleeping
or
Unlubed strap-on=caresses while sleeping
?

39

I had the same experience. It got to where I started to avoid him, and then it got to where I decided to avoid him for the rest of my life.

I also agree with not wanting to be woken up for sex. I don’t feel all that great when I first wake up. I don’t even want to talk unless necessary for an hour or two. Besides, did you think I was sleeping because I wasn’t tired?

40

Every woman is different, and it seems as though women in a relationship beyond the second date expect that the man they are dating know something of their past experience and temperment by the 3rd date. He’s no stranger at this point, and should already know if his date has reservations about sex, a history of sexual abuse, problems sleeping, or is slow to warm up. And even if it is a painful subject, any women with a history of sexual abuse should try to express fears or reservations *before *sexual activity ramps up; but that must be very awkward to fit in early in a relationship.

By the time they are sharing a bed, he should already know whether or not she would rather sleep, might be startled by sexual overtures, or is receptive to that kind of affection.

As for me:

I won’t do anything I don’t want to do, so I’ve no problem with verbally stopping an unwanted action with “not ready for that yet” or “I need a little more time” but since we’re talking about someone I’m clearly interested in, I consider his feelings as well. So I don’t feel anything other than mildly rushed, so long as he stops at my request. If he persists I’m angry and I’m leaving, and I don’t care what his feelings and motivations are.

However, I’ve reacted strongly in a negative fashion to overtly sexual overtures with no context at all. (Remember when Elaine’s date “took it out” in the middle of a conversation on a Seinfeld episode? That’s happened to me at least 10 times in my life, mostly in my teens, and each time it’s been a WTF moment and I’ve split immediately.)

A physical overture with no romantic precedent, again, I consider his feelings, too, and I am aware that my advances are rarely turned down regardless of context. But my receptiveness depends on my activity at the moment. If I’m studying, in the middle of a cooking or some other task which requires focus, probably annoyed, but I’ll respond with an affectionate “A little later, please” or somesuch. If I’m doing nothing important or pressing, I’m likely receptive. If I’m in love or on my way there, feeling desired is flattering enough to be a turn-on in and of itself.

While sleeping? Depends on how badly I need the sleep. He should be aware if I haven’t been sleeping well or have an early day tomorrow, and should understand that sometimes he should let me sleep and just take care of himself. (That goes both ways.) Day off, late morning, or week-end night: I’ll happily wake up to affectionate or passionate touches and participate.

But some women might have conflicted feelings and give conflicted signals, and might be hard to read. In that case: you are on your own. Unfortunately sex can be a complicated undertaking with two vastly different histories polluting the waters, and things can go awry. Sometimes it’s his fault, sometimes it’s hers; sometimes it should be called miscommunication and settled at a draw. People are complicated, and feelings are transient and ever-changing. We should all be given a pass for occasionally misreading or over-reaching boundaries.

Is there some reason why you wouldn’t iniate a discussion about such things? I mean, just ask outright “Sometimes I get so wound up I just want to roll over and ravish you. How do you feel about being awakened for sex?” or “I don’t want to rush things, but I can’t get you off my mind and really want you” should lead to clear communication before anyone takes offense or feels rejected.