I seem to have hijacked my own thread.
Alright, resolved - initiating sex with a sleeping woman is a bad idea.
Now: How do you communicate, through words or conduct, that you want the man to make a move where “move” is anything from a kiss to intercourse?
Not once has any man I’ve wanted had any doubt he was wanted. Not once.
I think the question might be “How do I know how far I can go?” Beyond kissing? If he slides his hands along my lower back under the shirt, hands around my waist or anywhere above the equator and I’m open to having my breasts touched, I might move so he has easier access, move his hands there myself, or make enough involuntary encouraging noises that he has no doubt he’s headed in the right direction. If I’m not ready, I’ll move his hands away or stop the action. If he attempts to slide my skirt up or unbutton my pants I either allow the action to continue with same responses as above or I will move his hands away or stop the action altogether. If he has the green light to go all the way, I’m probably tugging at his clothing and rounding all the bases, too, and it should be pretty clear.
But any doubt? Ask. Just ask. “Can I touch you?” while your tugging at her shirt or skirt hem. “I can’t wait to make love to you. Promise you’ll let me know when you are ready.” “I don’t want to rush you, but let me know if you want to make love; I can’t stop thinking about you.”
You can convey desire, patience, and respect if you choose your words carefully.
In the past, I have asked if I could touch her breasts (it was the first time we were making out and we had kissed for the first time about 15 minutes earlier) and the asking was not appreciated at all. From my discussion with her, it was a significant part of why she wasn’t interested. It wasn’t much of a loss in that particular case but the “guess because guessing is spontaneous and romantic and asking kills the mood, but guess right exactly when I want it” thing unnerves me when it comes to future dates.
Perhaps most women aren’t like that.
Hmm… I’m sorry I can’t rationalize this, but “Can I touch your breasts” sounds somehow clinical and creepy. Like something an attorney would say to lay out a verbal contract defense. I wouldn’t respond well to that, either. If your partner is breathing heavily, moaning, and responding with clear excitement, a hand sliding towards the breast should be either accepted or pushed away, and if rejected, a quick, quiet “Im sorry” should take care of it, and a resumption of the approved activities could continue without a penalty.
I understand if you are hesitant based on past rebuffs, so I would bet on a conversation beforehand. Instead of “Which base can I expect to reach/I am hoping to touch your breasts tomorrow night” could you just convey your desire, and drop in a warning shot? “I need to let you know I can’t stop thinking about you. I’m going to leave it up to you to decide where my hands and lips can go, okay?” Or just stop at each stage, and say aloud “I really want you, but I don’t want to rush you.” If she stops, there’s your answer. If she pulls you back in, I’d say you have persmission to reach for the next base.
If things are heating up, haven’t the women you’ve been with responded in kind, by reaching under your clothes as well? I mean, if their only response is kissing and hands are staying on your back, neck or other relatively non-erogenous zones, maybe kissing is all you should expect.
Women aren’t expecting you to “guess”. They’re expecting you to be able to accurately assess the situation and proceed accordingly.
If doing this doesn’t come naturally to you, then asking permission before making a move might be what you should do. Just realize why that could turn someone off. If you have to ask, you take on the risk of either looking skittish or clueless. Neither one of these is liable to knock the socks off most women, because we often associate skittishness and cluelessness with inexperienced youth.
Some women, though, may find this endearing. So all is not hopeless.
I’ll be away for awhile, but just wanted to say that I’m sorry that a fun, spontaneous part of relationships and falling in love is so very fraught with anxiety and uncertainty. People are complicated, and past experiences color us in ways that another person can’t grok psychically. Sometimes we just have to fumble through, and a respectful apology goes a long way. If you feel her signals are unclear, that may indicate underlying hang-ups, doubts or fears, and maybe you should really dig in and get to know your partner before sex happens at all.
But you have many options to communicate your desire: IM, email, text, phone calls, a whisper during a make-out session, and none have to come across sounding like a legal maneuver. If her signals are so unclear that you are hesitant to move beyond kissing, than I’d say you have no choice but to address it verbally, and actually get some sort of clarification beforehand. If that lacks spontaniety, tough. It is better than offending or frightening someone. If she happens to prefer taking a passive role like the partner you referred to in post #43, then that really isn’t your fault if you guess wrong.
I want to say stick to partners who openly communicate rather than rely on you to read their minds. I realize that isn’t always possible, and when it isn’t: err in favor of verbal cues. And don’t take always take rejection personally. In this thread alone you’ve heard that women with unpleasant memories have different frames for what is and what isn’t acceptable; those feelings were cemented long before you came along and even if you must honor them; you didn’t cause them.
What you with the face said. I wonder if you are carrying baggage about being rebuffed a couple times. If so, time to move past it and pay attention to the woman moving under you, and kick the ex-girlfriends out of your mind.
It’s not about guessing, but about understanding and responding to a situation.
Would you want to marry someone who was constantly asking you to go running when you are exhausted, tries to drag you into bed when you are rushed and distracted, wants to grab fast food when you are expecting a romantic dinner and thinks she’s making funny jokes when your bummed that your dog just died? Of course not. Nobody wants to spend time without someone who isn’t able to read their mental states and respond appropriately. It’s exhausting and unfun. So one of things people look for in a dating is a suitor who can read them pretty well. I’m sure you’ve head people say “Yeah, she really ‘gets’ me.” That’s what that means. It’s one of the more important things we look for in a suitable mate, and it’s a “test” that gets passed or failed in the first few dates.
If you are consistently getting it wrong, the problem is probably with you. There are lots of books on body language out there. Pick one up, and spend a few weeks being consciously aware of what body language people are using and how it seems to correspond with what they are doing. After some time, you will be able to process all of that subconsciously. Even very autistic people with no inborn social skills can train themselves to brute-force identify and react to these things.
Since the signals on which the understanding is based are often ambiguous, there is a fair amount of guessing.
Your point about being with someone who constantly asks you to do things when you don’t feel like it is well taken. I understand that. Yet you only give me examples of times when someone fails to see that you’re not up for something and give me no examples of times when someone fails to see you are up for something. Is it just chance that all your examples were ones where the receiver didn’t feel like it?
I think I have a pretty good handle when it comes to perceiving “No Go” signals. It is “Go” signals which tend to be more ambiguous and which I have problems with.
I have informed myself about body language; websites, textbooks and asking friends. But unfortunately, most data on body language gives me info on when something is not welcome rather than info on when something is welcome. Which is why I’ve asked 2-3 times in this thread for signals which are given when someone is interested.
That’s the thing though, my signals won’t be the same as Even Sven’s and neither will be the same as your GF’s.
But I can easily picture being on the receiving end of “Some random internet stranger said that was a ‘go’ signal, why are you saying it means ‘stop’?” This whole thread is full of women who all have different reactions to the same advances.
If you, who have met and spent intimate time with this woman can’t tell, how the hell can the rest of us know what her particular signals are? We’ve never met her.
Ask the girl, say you don’t understand how yet but that you want to give her just as much pleasure as she gives you. And do it at a time when you’re not actually trying to get into her pants, it’s much more grown up that way.
By making a move, of course. Hint: if you’re dropping me at home and I grab your waist and snuggle, I don’t want you to just hop in the car and leave. If you’re dropping me off and I’ve got my hands in my armpits even though it’s 100F, get the heck out of Tucson please.
If it’s true that you recognize “no go” signals, then in the absence of those signals, there’s no harm in making an advancement and see where it takes you. The worse that can happen is that she pushes you away or says no. But most of the time if a woman is kissing you, she’s receptive to more than just kissing. You just have to make sure you’re taking things in a logical progression.
At what stage are you getting hung up on?
I know you’re looking for some magical universal “Come in, we’re OPEN” sign that you can see across the room, but it doesn’t exist. Sorry. You just have to probe until she either stops you or…doesn’t. With that said, as all the ladies have pointed out, if you’re going to get rebuffed (due to disinterest), you usually get rebuffed early. If you get rejected later she’s probably on the rag or wearing her ugly panties.
Yeah, but I was right, wasn’t I? People tried to explain it to you, and you got all defensive and pulled the wounded-fawn routine, complete with “But that’s not what I meant!” “Why are you talking about waking up with a dick inside you, just because the question was sparked by a story about waking up with a dick inside you?” You’ve agreed to drop it as a bad idea, but you still don’t understand why people were responding so negatively to MaggenPye’s story or interpreting your question as “Well, what’s so horrible about fucking someone who’s asleep?”
Pro tip: If you’re going to ask a question related to a story, it’s generally good form to understand the story. If your question is only tangentially related to the story and involves massively different circumstances, it is incumbent upon you to clarify and explain those different circumstances at the outset rather than expecting people to read your mind. Otherwise people are going to respond through the lens of the original story.
You weren’t right because I have understood. I only got defensive with you because of the way you answered. I felt no defensiveness with anyone else. You said that if I asked the question, you weren’t sure I could ever understand the answer. Yet I later explicitly said: “Alright, resolved - initiating sex with a sleeping woman is a bad idea.” so I did understand the answer.
Lasciel explained it to me and I agreed with her. The reason you are the only person I got defensive with is because the way you answered was not constructive in the least and you are the only person who chose to answer that way. Everyone else was helpful.
You say that I still don’t understand why people responded negatively to Maggen’s story. Yet I said that in similar circumstances, I would press charges. Surely saying that criminal charges should be pressed counts as understanding “why people were responding so negatively”.
I do understand why someone would have interpreted my question like you did. No one else but you chose to answer dismissively.
I’m going to use this as my new pickup line.
Why would you be on a date/go out with a guy who you aren’t attracted to? And if you are attracted to him, why such high levels of over the top disguest that he should dare approach you sexually?
I assume this was rhetorically?
I’d say your statement is still in error. I live by “Initiating sex with a sleeping woman without her prior express and informed consent to do so is wrong.”
When a relationship reaches the stage at which sex will likely happen, I find it best to have a discussion about boundaries and consent.
I have initiated sex with a sleeping woman. She had given her prior consent to just such an act. I did indeed begin with kissing and caressing rather than just ramming it in. A good time was had by all.
Re “May I touch your breasts?”
Coming from a youngish guy, this can be charming. Past a certain age, you are expected to be able to wait and to read her signals. When in doubt, I find it very useful to move your hand slowly from her waist to her breasts. This makes clear your intentions, makes it clear that you are trying to listen to her and her needs rather than just grabbing, and very importantly it gives her time to say no and to stop you.
AND
As others have pointed out, take rejection well. If she verbally or physically stops or slows you, don’t turn it into a pout or negotiation session. Just accept and go from there. The night isn’t ruined, you can still have fun together.
If she’s at all into you, she won’t cut you out of her life for trying to cop a feel at a time she’s not interested - there will be other opportunities! If she’s not into you at all, that will probably become clear. If she’s on the fence, pushing and hassling or pouting when she sets boundaries is pretty likely to push her right over to “not interested” once and for all. I can’t emphasize enough what a turn off pouting, whining, begging or physically disrespecting a “no” is, not to mention potentially disturbing. Conversely, taking a rejection/boundary well and staying romantic, kind and positive is a wonderful trait!
All this is of course assuming that you/the woman in question are into the whole “man takes the lead, woman accepts/rejects advances” thing, rather than the “talk about it with words and figure out where you’re both at” thing.
Isn’t the point of a date or two to help you decide whether or not you’re attracted to someone? Sometimes you know immediately whether or not someone is attractive (more often the nots), but there’s a really wide range of people who fall into a “maybe, maybe not” grey area. Right?
To the OP: personally speaking, being touched in a sexual way when I’m not currently interested in having sex is a very invasive, irritating experience. For example, let’s imagine that it’s early evening. The hubby and I have just gotten home from work, we have to cook dinner, feed kids, help kids with homework, bathe kids, and get kids put to bed in the next two hours. That’s the sort of stuff I’m thinking about. A quick hug and kiss would be nice. A hug, kiss, and grope would not be nice, and would leave lasting anti-sex emotions bubbling around my psyche.
http://myveryworstdate.comFor an eyeopening selection of the reactions of girls/women subjected to unasked-for maulings, I offer myveryworstdate.com. It’s like their ‘dates’ have been born in caves somewhere, left to grow older (but no wiser), with no social skills or brains whatsoever.