This is, perhaps, the greatest thing I’ve ever read on here.
Be my guest to read her older threads on the topic. She spoke in absolutes: “the Chinese will never accept Tibetans as Chinese.” I can’t recall any deviation from this theme. Correct me if I’m wrong (as I may be).
even sven is right, you’re an asshole. Did you miss the part where you she said:
She’s since learned from other people with experiences how to express her experience, yet you keep harping on what she used to say.
This is entirely apt; I’ve come across a few guys who think that just because they are dating an Asian person, they are so wholly informed in all things Asian. Everyone’s perception is different, and if you want to romanticize your experience, that’s your prerogative, but I thoroughly enjoy reading even sven’s experiences and perspectives, and surprise surprise, I’m of Chinese descent!
I don’t get why you have such a stick up your ass about it, but it’s time for you to shut the fuck up already.
There it is. The “I have a right to talk about China, but you don’t” thing.
This is two years for me- no more, but also no less. And for the last couple years, this is all I’ve done. This is, for now, my entire life. I live in the same China you do. I wake up to the same call of “Baaaaaaaaaozi.” I fall asleep under the same hazy stars. And I know some expats swoop in, enjoy the easy money for a while, drink overpriced beer at fake Irish bars and then disappear apparently untouched. But that’s not the experience I’m having. I’m out here in the trenches, living the real thing twenty-four hours a day. Living in China has forever changed me and will always be a part of who I am. Like someone who has spent two years in combat or whatever, this experience has profoundly affected me. So don’t tell me it doesn’t count.
I think it’s funny that you pull the “you can to China with preconceived notions” card. Actually, I’m the one person on the planet who missed the Olympic hype. I’d spent the last two years living in a mud house in an African village with only the soft murmur of BBC Network Africa to connect me to the outside world. I went to my boss’s office asking to stay in Cameroon. He offered me a position in China. I had some vague notion that China was a rising power, and I though learning Chinese sounded pretty neat, so I signed up. When I arrived I was so cracked out after two years straight in Africa I could barely parse America, much less have a lot of notions of China. When I packed, I packed a half-dozen prayer scarves, since these were invaluable in Africa and I was so out of it I couldn’t imagine not needing prayer scarves!
“Moronic” and “gullible” have nothing to do with it. Were the imperial Japanese “moronic”? Were the Nazis “gullible”? I’ve stated before that I think this nationalism is being pushed by the government for some specific reasons. And governments are good at what they do. The fact that the school system does not push critical thinking and media analysis skills as much probably does help these ideas get accepted. But for the most part if any autocratic government is pushing an agenda, a lot of people are going to buy into it.
If someone comes back from Bangkok and says “Gee, I saw a lot of sex industry” is Siam Sam going to come here freaking out? Is he going to take that as a huge insult to the Thai people?
There is a lot of open prostitution in China. I passed two “pink light salon” districts on the bus yesterday, and I saw several women who were probably prostitutes at shao kao last night- though I leave room for doubt that a single late teens women in skimpy clothes might have some other reason to be hanging out with a large groups of business men. These are daily experiences for me. If someone asks about sexuality in China, I’m likely to mention that I saw a lot of prostitution. Because I did.
Anyway, I’m not passing value judgments. I never used the word “sleazy.” Yes, I find sexuality is very different here. And yeah, it’s in a way that often makes me uncomfortable. I’m not saying it’s bad, but it’s a bad match for me. I find China much like 1950s America, and I’ve discovered I am very much not a woman of the 1950s. I’d venture that this is one area where your experience is not inherently more valuable than me. China mostly has very distinct gender roles, and so living in China is going to be an extremely different experience for men than for women. You have noticed there are not a ton of female expats, right? Or are you going to deny that? There is a reason behind it.
Sure. I think I live in one of the top food cities on the planet, and I will never eat this good again. I have some really good friends that are just have really good souls. I love teaching here, and my students are hard working and really give a lot. I think China has some good ideas about physical exercise, and I love how easy it is to buy fruit. I love the old people dancing. I think China is a great place to visit as a tourist, and the sites are fascinating. The history and culture are old and complex. I appreciate the inherent beauty of the Chinese language. I’ve always had a great time and been very welcomed when I visit villages.
Plenty of good stuff.
A central-government sponsored debate that appears rigged and proposes a bizarre unscientific racist viewpoint. If the government of the US organized a “debate” about if white people were a separate species, that’d be pretty weird, right? I’m kind of reeling about this one right now. I’m headed out to teach in a few minutes, and I’m going to be teaching in front of a bunch of people who have just been convinced that I am different species than them. Yeah, that makes me uncomfortable. It takes some real mental gymnastics not to see this as a huge warning sign that something weird is going on.
The irony, it proverbially burns.
In this “other pit thread” you mention, you call everyone who disagrees with you on an issue a racist, and you do so because of your political views. Then, in this thread, you get on kidneyfailure’s ass for having different political views than you and chide him for “making it personal.” I’d say calling other folks “racists” is pretty damn personal.
I’m afraid there’s quite a bit more to it than that…
I look at it my thing with even sven this way:
When people come on here and call Americans culturally-ignorant dumbasses who know nothing outside of what’s on American Idol, I get on their cases about it because I know it to be false and I think the “dumb American” stereotype needs to be combatted.
When people do the same about China, but portray them as racists morons rather than redneck hicks, I do the same because I know it to be false and I think the “Chinese are prejudiced against Tibetans/Uighurs/Mongolians/foreigners/etc.” stereotype needs to be combatted. I’m not going to make any apologies for anything I’ve said.
If even sven has finally started saying that everything she says is merely her own experience (something China Guy and I urged her to do a while back) then good for her. Maybe that’s why I’ve been less annoyed by her posts lately.
And if you think I’m an asshole? Well, I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.
Waffle Deciderer, I think I can speak for Kidney as well as myself when I write that it is deeply offensive to paint the picture that we are offended at criticism at the Chinese Communist Party or Government. There is a plethora of legitimate issues to criticize these organizations over. No need for hyperbole, cherry picking examples, exaggeration - the truth is plenty powerful. At least I have direct personal experience and indirect personal experience through my extended family about the CCP.
Even Sven, I don’t know how to put this (be clear it’s not a pitting). You are probably aware that if you do go into government or public policy related to China, that you also have the capacity to do great harm (with the best of intentions) if you get it wrong. Drawing on your experience in "real’ China, which from what I’ve read, has some real extreme skews. The road to hell is paved with civil servants blinded by their “real” experiences. Please don’t become that way.
Even Sven, your students were probably not even born in 1989 or they were toddlers. Given the government censorship and probably well meaning censorship of their parents so they focus on getting into and graduating from college, I can partially understand the lack of knowledge. However, you should get yourself over to Chengdu. It is highly likely that more protesters died in Chengdu than in Tiananmen that week. Several city blocks were razed to the ground during the protests, and not cleaned up later when I visited. The street in front of the Mao statue was littered with burned out buses and trucks. I went to Sichuan maybe a month after Tiananmen. Elderly grandmothers, young kids, police, professionals, hotel workers, etc sought me out in Xichang and Chengdu to ask if I knew what happened. They wanted to get the story out to the world. The absolute hatred and vitrol they had for the “goddamn ignorant fucking peasants” in the army that perpetrated the massacres was brutal. The photos of the "unrest that the government posted publically on street corners in Chengdu were horrifying and suggests that it was far far far worse than I was told or can imagine. Report back on what you uncover as I’m really interested.
FYI, All those university “party girls” that you hang out with exploring the soft underbelly of the bumfuck city you live in would all have been kicked out of university if they had dressed that way in 1989. They would have all been arrested and done time in re-education camps for acting like, well, party girls. You would have been deported for public morals issues if you acted then like you do now (although it would have been tough since there were nightclubs or bars to go to, no mafia bosses to hang with, no sex trade periphery to check out). And that’s not hyperbole. I was very careful in China at that time to make sure I did not inadvertently cause any undue attention or harm to people I interacted with. You only have to see the “authorites” summarily haul someone in for questioning for an innocent public conversation with a foreigner to start understanding the ramifications of being “yourself”. And you’ll just have to take the word of this anonymous internet poster when I say that my family had some very harsh lessons taught to them at that time. The stuff is far too vpersonal to share. So, please don’t portray China as being less free because the internets aren’t free and democracy is not spontaneously sprouting.
In the future, please keep helping your students and Chinese society join the global community as responsible members by fighting ignorance.
(Note - I am at Computex, starting a new job, and preparing to move my family to the US so please excuse me if I can’t respond but I will try.)
China Guy
I’d be interested to hear your view of racism in China if you have time.
I don’t know much about the situation in mainland China, and I’ll allow you to decide for yourself how much of what I’m about to say is applicable to the mainland. Perhaps things are completely different there because the history is different. I may get flamed for saying this, but whatever. I will say that many of the people of Chinese descent in Hong Kong are quite racist. Racism is a real problem there, and it is not a myth. And for the record, I am of Chinese descent and I’m from HK. Here are some cites:
http://www.hrichina.org/public/contents/article?revision_id=2842&item_id=2841
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1822399,00.html
http://www.harinderveriah.com/articles5.html
These are all consistent with what I saw growing up over there in the 80s and early 90s.
One of my cousins also experienced this firsthand. They’re originally from Singapore, and her husband is of Indian descent. Both of them are professionals in the financial industry, and they were sent to HK for an assignment. They ran into all kinds of issues because of her husband’s race. They felt very unwelcome there, and they left in less than a year.
even sven seems so nice. Reminds me of why I joined this place. 
You need to remember that America has a very unique cultural context when it comes to attitudes about race, even compared to most other western countries. American suffered through a traumatic period where a substantial minority that has been historically despised and disenfranchised were forcibly integrated into the majority society.
One example to illustrate my point, and I may be stealing it somewhat from Malcom Gladwell’s last book. Most western European countries outlawed black slavery earlier than the United States did, indeed it took a major destructive war. This wasn’t because the average Englishman or Frenchman was any less racist than the average American, it was because to the average Englishman, the emancipation of black slaves in their Caribbean colonies meant absolutely nothing - he didn’t have to now live with freed slaves, black families weren’t moving into his block, he didn’t have to see any more black people than he did before, he could have been just as racist as anyone and it would have made no difference. Even the former slave owners were largely not disadvantaged economically, as they still generally controlled the plantation economies of the colonies, or if they didn’t like it, they can just pack up and go back to Britain.
Americans, on the other hand, often did have to do all of those things. Many whites lost their fortunes, were forced to live with and deal with people who they previously considered property, and otherwise underwent a very difficult process of socioeconomic integration that continues today.
There’s other things, like the later large scale immigration from all over the world, but basically, Americans are generally going to be less racist than most other people if only because it’s hard and counterproductive to function in a multi-racial society while holding abhorrent views about other races. Generally American society, to its great credit, also discourages the holding of such views. Even an American who is parochial in outlook and not well traveled probably at least meets black people from time to time and is discouraged from thinking blacks are inferior to whites or some such.
Consider the cultural context of the average Chinese. He has probably never seen a black person in his life, probably never will, and if he isn’t in an urban area, might never see any white Europeans either. I don’t doubt that he holds outrageous and offensive views on both, but then, who is ever going to correct him, and why would it ever matter? If this fellow never meets a black man, his views won’t make any difference to anyone. So is he ignorant and a petty bigot? Certainly, many people all over the world are. Is he RACIST, in the sense that he literally thinks white Europeans are monkeys and subscribes to some overarching theory of the superiority of the Chinese race? Well even if he does, he probably has more important things to worry about anyway, and if he ever meets even sven, I’m sure he’ll be forced to rethink things.
I think this is a useful thing to keep in mind for westerners traveling to other places that are largely culturally and ethnically homogeneous.
As an aside, I am kind of convinced that the intellectual atmosphere of the late 1980s was more liberated than that of today - I remember the (so called “fifth generation”)Chinese films of that era dealing with all kinds of things that seem to be no longer dealt with after TAM. Maybe the market has just been flooded with imported Japanese/Taiwanese drivel and the revolutionary spirit of the people subsumed by decadent consumerism.
Waffle Deciderer, I think I can speak for Kidney as well as myself when I write that it is deeply offensive to paint the picture that we are offended at criticism at the Chinese Communist Party or Government.
Absolutely. I am not a Communist, I don’t care about the party or anything like that. I am in no way, shape, or form a “government shill,” nor am I member of any “wu mao dang,” or anything ridiculous like that. At the same time, I do NOT, as it seems many foreigners in China do, feel that the CCP is “evil” or even as bad as most people think. I wouldn’t want to join it, I could think of parties I personally like better, but I can’t think of any other party that could do a better job of keeping China together and relatively stable than the one it has now. But go ahead and mention that to a group of Western expats in China. Or tell them that you don’t think the situation in Tibet and Xinjiang is really the way it’s portrayed in the Western media. Or that you think that Falun Gong is a cult. You’ll get odd stares, people will call you a “government shill” or “apologist for the regime.” And why? Because people are unwilling to think outside the box about this place. Even sven seems to be one of those. I may be wrong, but her posts seems to confirm my suspicions.
Anyway, I’ve said my piece and explained myself. I don’t have anything else to say about this issue. If even sven says something I think is stupid in a future thread I’ll be sure to let her know what I think about it, as I’ve always done. If she says something that I agree with, as in the threads about the school stabbings and others, I wont have anything to say.
I will say, though: even sven, I’m sorry you didn’t have such a good time in China. From what I know, you don’t live in a very good area, and I’m sure that hasn’t contributed much to your experience. I hope you’ll have a chance to come back under better circumstances some other time. Perhaps you’ll have a better experience at a later time that can help you get a bigger picture of life here.
Seems like the Kuomintang has done a decent job of letting go of its one-party state system and embraced a multi-party representative democracy. It wouldn’t be a utopia, but China would likely be much more stable and the world a slightly less dangerous place if the make-up of the PRC looked more like the ROC.
That’s in a small island with a dramatically smaller population and less volatile ethnic issues. And, IIRC, last time the Guomindang was in control of the Mainland it didn’t go over too well. Anyway, start a GD thread about that if you want.
Well, I apologize for causing any unintended offence. It probably did not come out right. The deal is, I think kidneyfailure behaved obnoxiously in his responses in the original thread that inspired this pit thread, and I think I’m not alone here. That reminded me of the times when I was on the receiving end of similar obnoxious, offensive, ad hominem, debating tactics from certain people. I’m sorry that my earlier message has gone beyond that and has mischaracterized your position.
sure. another time and thread though.
I think a lot of it is ignorance rather than malicious in China. not that that is an excuse.
Don’t worry. One thing I discovered about myself is that I’m way too much of a dreamy-eyed idealist for the cold real world of forming policy, and more importantly that this is something I hope I never lose. I hope twenty years from now I’m still touched to the core when I hear about a child dying.
When I came here, I had the diplomat’s view. I was going to do things by the book, keep my head down, and hope somehow that I’d inspire my students in small, subtle ways. I’d hope that being a role model would somehow be helpful. I reminded myself to be "culturally appropriate’ and always let people come to their own conclusions without stating my opinion. I reminded myself that upsetting things would just get me kicked out and hurt any good our program has done. I mastered all the techniques for deflecting the “three T’s.” I learned a lot of phrases that make it sound like you are talking about something without really saying anything at all. When classes got heated, I would effortlessly deflect the conversation into something harmless. I was good at it. Masterful at it, even. The smiling, positive, inoffensive American teacher. Everyone loved me. I was perfect.
Then I read Ha Jin’s book The Crazed and Waiting and it was a like a lightbulb went off in my head. I was acting like everything I despised. I had lost what I believed in in order to conform to social expectations- the very thing I despaired about in my students. I knew one thing in my heart and said another thing with my mouth. I hoped for change, but didn’t have the heart and balls to step towards it. I was exactly like the millions of people who yearn for freedom, but don’t dare to say it. I was like the millions of people who know the truth, but say the party line instead, using only the most oblique references to hint at what they know to be true. And that is the problem. That’s why so much bullshit happens. Because people- everyone- was acting just like I did.
And that was like a ton of bricks. I realized that repression is not about what it does to your body- the rules, the regulations, but what it does to your soul. It’s about the parts of you that you give up voluntarily. My heart didn’t get sucked out of me- I gave it up, for free. I easily and willingly became the model worker, the smiling yes-man, the perfect sucker. I played the farce. I accepted the peanuts I got in return. And I pretended like I wasn’t pretending and everyone around me wasn’t pretending. And that is how the bad things keep going. Because nobody will say what everyone knows.
Although I told myself that I was doing the right thing, a vague sense of shame and loathing had become a constant presence. It was so subtle that I would have never realized it if I hadn’t recognized it so clearly in the Ha Jin book. The shame of someone who has denied themselves. The kind of shame that perpetuates itself by making you more and more uncomfortable with who you are and what you have become. A shame that eventually inspires you to obliterate yourself.
A small experiment with repression, nowhere like the real can’t-escape-from-it thing. But it was enough to shake my soul.
Of course I’m not unfurling “free Tibet” banners on campus or anything. But I promised myself when I got asked a straight question, I’d tell the straight truth. I’ll never forget the day my best student- a bit of a seeker- asked me what really happened in Tienanmen Square. He had some vague idea, but wanted an answer. I told him. He started crying, right there in the hallway. He said he had no idea, no idea at all that those things could happen. I encouraged him not to believe my word, but to look up all the information he could. I tried to give him some hope. But I don’t think either one of us will recover from what we learned that day.
Since I’ve made that promise, I’ve been a lot happier here. I’ve learned how to live with myself again.
So hopefully in the future you’ll find me where I belong- rallying for malaria eradication, inspiring school children to find their dreams, raising funds for orphans or managing clinics for the poor. I’m smart enough to realize that the world probably needs more clear-headed realists than fiery dreamers. But I also know I’m a damned good idealist and I think there is a place in the world for that.
The other day, a spoiled rich high school student went up to a friend’s blackboard and scrawled “Fuck the government, I will not be a Chinese idiot.” Perhaps it’s simply the kind of cockiness only a disaffected rich kid could have. But, look at the spirit! Perhaps there is hope, yet.
That was a very moving post. It seems to dove-tail into what Vaclav Havel described in his essay “Power of the Powerless”:
Look to history. Let’s be honest, the KMT were dragged kicking and screaming to democracy. Didn’t hurt that the KMT fractured after Chiang Ching-Kuo (aka butthead) croaked. And it is fledging at less than 20 years old.
Don’t get me wrong, as I post from Taipei. But let’s not whitewash nor marginalize the struggle it took for Taiwan to move from a facist military dictatorship to where it is now. And just so it’s clear, I lived here in Taiwan when it was under martial law and the DPP were the dangwai party without a name because it was illegal. So, please also don’t stereotype me because I am fighting ignorance regarding Taiwanese history that this implies I’m a running lapdog of the butchers in Beijing. Thanks!
Waffle - apology accepted. And we can discuss “honkies” and their racist views at some point. 
So who gets to call Americans culturally-ignorant dumbasses?
Seriously, the entire China discussion seems to revolve around who gets to be an ‘old China hand’ and have an opinion and who, like ES, doesn’t. To continue your comparison, who gets to have an opinion about Americans - Only Americans? Canadians, Mexicans and Americans who’ve lived abroad? Europeans who once bought a coke in Georgia and were served before a black guy? Who?
I do what I can.