You know what, kidneyfailure? (about China)

The BBQ Pit
41

Having an opinion is one thing, negative stereotyping is another. Saying, “I don’t particularly care for Americans” is an opinion. OTOH, saying, “Americans are idiots who don’t know anything beyond what their TV sets tell them” is a negative stereotype, as it is when you replace the words “Americans” with “Chinese,” “idiots” with “racists,” and “TV sets” with "government,"which, undeniably, was what **even sven ** implying. IIRC, there have been more than a few threads on here wherein someone uttered an offensive stereotype about Americans, or Palestinians, or Jews, or Blacks, or Texans, and someone quite naturally took offense to it. I took offense to Sevastopol defaming my religion and no one had anything to say about it, but I take offense to even sven’s one-dimensional mischaracterization of China as a place rife with stupidity and sleaze and I’m the “asshole” who needs to “shut the fuck up” simply because she tacked on self-serving “this is just my opinion” disclaimer. Would you have all started hand-jobbing Sevastopol as vigorously as you’ve been doing to even sven if he said that it was merely his “own experience” that Judaism was a “polluted” religion that is now an “evil cult”?

I was inspired to return briefly to this thread by an old issue of National Geographic that I found last night. Somebody in the letters section was complaining that a story about Puerto Rico that had run in the previous month’s issue was offensive. Their letter asked something like, “Would you like it if I showed a photo essay of people shooting up in Houston, Klansmen in Alabama, and Enron execs and passed it off as representative of the US?” I can completely understand that person’s feeling: when something important to you is shown in an offensive and one-sided way, it makes you angry. And somebody saying, “I only shot what I saw” or “I only write about my own experiences” doesn’t do much to help that. I can’t possibly be the only one who has experienced this before, but maybe it’s just not convenient for anyone to admit it in this thread.

42

I’m sorry if “there is no racism in the worker’s paradise” is your particular cause, but my perception of China comes from my experiences in China. I see lots of prostitutes, I conclude there is a lot of prostitution. I see lots of racism, I conclude there is a lot of racism.

If I saw Jews sacrificing Christian babies all the time, yeah, I’d probably also conclude that Judaism had something sketchy going on.

I experience racism- subtle and overt- on a daily basis. I’m not sure how you can expect me to draw a conclusion that is at odds with *all *of my experiences. I could tell countless stories. Sure, anecdotes are not truth, but this is all I experience all the time. After X amount of racist comments and incidents in any one place, you are going to have no choice but to conclude that racism is indeed a problem in that area. When you see racism constantly, you are going to eventually decide there is a lot of a racism. There is no other reasonable way to interpret it beyond your theory that all of my experiences are flukes, misinterpretations or otherwise invalid.

Does this mean I think Chinese people are stupid or bad? Of course not. I never said anything like that. Every country has racism. My beloved Cameroonians said some of the most-jaw dropping racist stuff I’ve ever heard. My own grandfather is racist. I do think that living in a fairly isolated and relative homogeneous society is part of it. I think there is also a valid argument of that historically there is a bit of Han exceptionalism that probably remains a bit of a force today.

Do I worry that the government is using racism to bolster nationalism and thus secure a more stable position for themselves should the financial boom that they are currently relying on to maintain their power waver? Yes. This absolutely does not mean I think Chinese people are mindless robots. Of course not everyone accepts it blindly. But the Chinese government is a huge, sophisticated and powerful force that controls the press and the education system, and it’s ridiculous to say they don’t have a strong influence on general public opinion.

I wouldn’t worry so much if there wasn’t such a strong historical precedent that nationalism+racism=really bad shit.

Anyway, I’m off to teach my students who were just (for the most part) convinced by government scientists that we are different species and any offspring we made would be an genetically flawed mutant that goes against the laws of nature. Can’t you see why I’m uncomfortable with this?

43

You mean the very same government that sponsored a class in middle and elementary schools nationwide devoted specifically to ethnic unity? That very same one? Interesting. I wonder where the millions of shaoshu minzu dangyuan across China will fit into this evil racist plan. I can’t really imagine a white, blonde-haired Party member from the eluosi minzu being too thrilled about anything like that. Maybe you’re just paranoid?

44

Missed the edit window:

Interestingly enough, China Daily, one of those “state-run periodicals from…BEIJING!” (cue scary music), argued the exact opposite, that there was nothing wrong whatsoever with hunxue’er and that they should be treated like any other Chinese citizen, during the Lou Jing affair. If the government is really into pushing racism, as you seem to claim, they’re doing an awfully bad job.

45

What about nationalism plus socialism? I feel so sad nobody got my reference in the other thread.

Kidney and even, I can see both your points of view, but if I have to choose I do lean toward even’s on the ground experience. Kidney does smack of the “old china hand” syndrome: “pshaw, my dear boy, that may have been what you saw from your limited perspective, but my peers Owen Lattimore and Edgar Snow prove quite authoritatively that on the basis of Mao Tse-tung’s third essay on dialectic materialism we can see that the Great Leap Forward was a natural outstemming of the communal mobilization campaign which followed the Hundred Flowers initiative (as referenced in People’s Daily, June 7 1956 p. 3 col. 2) inso far as blah blah blah blah blah”

46

No, no, I got your reference in the other thread. I thought it was rather funny. However, since I’m not a CCP member and am not offended by criticism of said party (sorry, Waffle Decider), I didn’t have anything to say about it. I’ll get ya next time, bud!

I enjoyed the Owen Lattimore and Edgar Snow namedrops, but I’m not an “old China Hand” kind of person. I just take issue with even sven portraying China as she does: a place full of prostitutes and racism. Ok, fine, that may be what she’s seen in her “experience,” but that isn’t what China is and anyone who thinks it is is is sadly mistaken.

How about the Tiananmen thing she mentioned? **Even sven’s **students don’t know about it? Ok, fine. What is someone who has never been to China or knows very little about China going to extrapolate from a post like that? That “the Chinese” know nothing about Tiananmen. That is inaccurate. Maybe 19-year-olds don’t know anything about it, but what about the millions (hundreds of millions?) of people who lived through it who are barely even 50 years old now?

She presents an inaccurate picture of China, I know it to be untrue, and I’ll call her on it when I feel she’s wrong. End of story. Perhaps I could have been more polite to her; I apologize for being rude. But her depiction of China is not true beyond her own city and I’ll make sure people know that. That’s my motivation, right there.

47

Can’t believe I missed this.

Oh yeah? Hey, even sven: do you make more money than the Chinese teachers in your school do? When was the last time someone told you to get your ass to the back of the bus? When was the last time you saw a “no foreigners” sign in a public establishment in China? When was the last time someone refused to serve you because you were white?

48

I’ve never taken that away from her descriptions - what I’ve been reading is that there is a fair bit of open prostitution (not unusual for a suddenly-affluent people with existing gender disparity) and highly misguided *views *on race. I haven’t taken the impression away that all young Chinese women are hos, or all Chinese people are rabid racists of the lynchin’ and jew-burning type, which is how you seem to be (mis)characterising her posts, especially with your “back of the bus” analogy. Racism is racism even if it isn’t acted upon.

49

Attention all American black people! Skald, Nzinga, all y’all get in here. Lemme ask you this, because I really think this deserves clearing up: Do you make a decent salary? Have you ever in fact been told to move to the back of a bus or seen a “no blacks” sign in a restaurant? Have you recently actually been refused service outright because the server told you explicitly you were black?

Well, you’ll be happy to know that if not, then you, as American blacks, never in fact have ever encountered racism. Whew, aren’t you relieved? High five! No, no, don’t thank me, thank Kidney – he’s right over there.

50

This is fun, I want to play :

IIRC, even sven is in the peace corps and sometimes has to use her savings to supplement her salary in order to be able to get by.

Last month I was outside a bus station looking for a taxi. There were 5 or 6 taxis lined up waiting for passengers. All of them refused me.

Many times I am asked to pay more than the locals while I am shopping. Sometimes the price they want me to pay is many times higher . When I offer to pay the price paid by locals, many times they refuse to sell to me.

I was recently in Nanjing. A friend of mine was helping me to find a hotel room.
We stopped to inquire at a branch of a very large chain of hotels. We were told that foreigners are not allowed to stay there.

There are many things that happen almost everyday. Not all of them are bad.
I have been offered free meals at restaurants, and a taxi once refused to let me pay.
Many times people will stop me in the street and offer to help or guide me.

Maybe our experiences are different because we are not in large cities such as Beijing or Shanghai. I am currently in a very small city.

Today was a fun day because I was paid to be in a TV commercial because I am the only foreigner in town. Sometimes there are many fun positives, but also I could never say that there is no racism here.

51

Huh? So you’re saying the journalist who covered Puerto Rico was lying? Maybe they doctored the photos and made up the story? Bring proof if you want to make that claim.

But if it’s simply a case that the negative coverage makes you (them) feel bad, while I can understand that feeling, I have to say that if you find it offensive because it’s exposing an underbelly that you’d rather be kept hidden, or didn’t even know about, then I think the problem is yours (theirs).

It seems though, after reading all the above, what you probably want is a ‘balanced picture’. Huh. I don’t think that’s important myself. “Sure we have racial inequality, but we’re also number one in nutrition!” It doesn’t cut it with me. Even Sven’s experiences are as valid as yours. Perhaps she has a unique perspective as a woman. Perhaps she does have a goal to discredit China (I sincerely doubt it though! - you’d have to be an idiot to think so).

Like you, I’ve seen both sides of the glee that one country takes in another country’s failings - particularly in terms of press coverage. People still bring up Pauline Hanson (now a disgraced, irrelevant joke in her own country) and say - “So you guys have racist politicians there in Australia huh?” “Yeah”, I have to admit, sometimes we do. The facts are there, I’d rather live up to it than lie about it or downplay it by mentioning that we also grant foreign aid or support a multicultural lifestyle. Even worse would be to bring up some notionally cognate failing of their own country as a rebuttal. Completely lame.

52

Precisely. If you interpretation someone saying one thing as if they are really saying another you can’t get mad at them for your own interpretation.

See how you disliked it when you were accused of being a nationalist when you are not? Same thing.

Look, just because someone doesn’t like your country doesn’t mean they are lying. Just because they tell bad stories doesn’t mean there aren’t good ones. If you are truly interested in giving a balanced picture, offer counterexamples. Don’t attack them, or it looks like you are the one being disingenuous.

Look, even sven has gotten on my nerves before, too. Her style may be a bit provocative outside the pit. But she still comes across as a decent person. She’s paid so much attention to your problems with her posts, and has gone out of her way to try and appease you. This is not the behavior of someone who is trying to disparage your country and spread falsehoods. It’s the behavior of someone who wants to share her experiences.

Again, if you want to combat them, share your own. Or even start providing citations. But don’t attack her because you interpret her posts in one way when she says she means another.

53

So, as an old American hand, I can say “In my opinion, Americans are idiots who don’t know anything beyond what their TV sets tell them” ?

If not, can I say “In my opinion, Americans are the kindest people on earth?”

54

But she may not have the requisite knowledge to put those experiences in their proper context or to make accurate extrapolations.

I can’t speak to even sven’s case in particular, but I’ve met a lot of foreigners in Japan for whom a little knowledge was a dangerous thing.

55

Actually, I make around 1200 RMB, half of what the teachers at my school make. You ever try living in China on 1200 RMB?

Foreign teachers at my school usually make 4,000 RMB, which is more than your average teacher but not mind-boggling so, but they also have a rare skill that only six people in my town have- being a native English speaker. Foreign teachers in my town get screwed by the shady agency they go through, which promises them a lot of things when they are England and doesn’t deliver them when they are in China. Granted, I think the shadesters at that agency would screw anyone, but foreigners are an easy target for employment scams.

I’ll give you that I never get sent to the back of the bus, but in certain cities (particularly Kunming, sometimes Chengdu), I get passed up by empty cabs regularly. Last time I was in Kunming an empty cab slowed, saw me and waved me off. I yelled “Why?” He said he was at the end of his shift and hit his meter. He drove ten feet forward and picked up a waiting Chinese lady. Sometimes I can spend an hour just waiting for a cab that will accept me.

There is a “no Japanese allowed” sign at a popular coffee shop in Chengdu.

And there are indeed many hotels that do not allow foreigners and many areas where foreigners cannot travel independently.

I went recently to get a qipao made with an African-American friend, struck up a brief conversation with the laoban who then busied herself with some small task. After twenty minutes of waiting I realized she had no intention of serving us. It sucks, because that’s the only qipao tailor in town and I’d like to get some made before I leave. I’m trying to decide if I want to swallow my pride and return with a Chinese person.

Now and then I am refused service at restaurants. I imagine they are mostly worried about communication issues, which they shouldn’t be since I speak reasonable Mandarin and Sichuanhua.

On the other hand, I also get plenty of “good” special treatments. I get free drinks and free meals all the time, rushed to the front of the line, etc. pretty often. This is racism, too, and although this form of prejudice is more fun for me, most of the time I’d really just like to be treated like a regular person.

56

Yeah I’ve met a lot of people for whom a little knowledge was a dangerous thing too. I know what you mean.

But let her make the comments on her own experiences, and we can all extrapolate of it what we will.

57

Thanks for sharing these experiences. It’s unfortunate that your experiences are not valid, and your opinions based upon them is of no interest. Keep at it, though, and someday the Old China Hands will sneer at you as an equal.

58

simple homer - let’s be clear. howsabout you say where you are? What small city? what specific hotel in Nanjing?

Of course you and I understand clearly why you were quoted something different than the local price. Of course, you also understand that non local chinese get quoted a price higher than the ‘local’ price, right?

I don’t doubt you have real experience. But let’s put it into context ok?

59

Your counter argument is that Chinese people are xenophobic, not racist? Did I read that correctly?

60

A 7 Days Hotel near Nanjing University. Not a small local hotel, but part of a large national chain.

Of course I know that non local Chinese get quoted a high price also, but, the refusal to sell to me when I offer the same price as a local does not seem fair.

I have visited about a dozen cities in China, and mine does not seem to differ greatly from the others.

Local women that are just friends are hesitant to walk with me in the streets.
Why ? Because they do not like being called a “traitor” or a “whore” just because they are walking with me. If that is not racism, then what is it ?

When I am walking on the street most of the people just ignore me, same as if I were any other person. But, there are the groups of people, typically young men, that point , shout “hello” and laugh as I walk by. Things like that make it difficult for a person to forget that they are an outsider.

There are many positives to being here. Many people go out of their way to help me and to be polite. It is just the small percentage that go out of their way on a daily basis to remind me that I am “not Chinese” that can make life difficult here.