"24" Season 2, Episode 22 - 5:00 a.m. - 6:00 a.m. (SPOILERS)

[RikWriter]

*Originally posted by BobT *
**I think I want to get a job for CTU **

Given the average lifespan of a CTU agent on this show, where do I send flowers?

[FallenAngel]

*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow *
**An interesting question: what happens to Kim? She may well be liable for murder. I’m pretty sure that California is a retreat-doctrine state – that is, if you can retreat safely, you cannot claim self-defense for the use of deadly force.
**

"Well, Mr. District Attorney, I hid in the attic (establishing willingness to avoid confrontation), but he followed me up there. I hit him to get him away and he fell (establishing willingness to use minimum required force). Then I fell through the ceiling. We were both dazed but I tried to back away again. When I saw him start to move again I grabbed his gun so he couldn’t shoot me (establishing renewed perceived hostile intent on EvilDad’s part). He tried to come at me again and I had to shoot him. My dad taught me to shoot and it was standard to shoot twice in the center of mass (establishing that she’s not dumb enough to say there was almost a full minute between shots).

If there were to be an arrest, no DA with an IQ over 70 would actually pursue charges if presented with this story, even in California. Kim followed both major rules for a gunfight. Rule 1: Have a gun. Rule 2: Claim self-defense and leave no witnesses.

[FallenAngel]

*Originally posted by tdn *
**And what, pray tell, is wrong with the teachers in the Boston Public School system? **

I’m aware personal opinions vary wildly, but every teacher I’ve seen on Boston Public is a hideous troll-woman, particularly the fish-faced chick from whatever Star Trek clone that was.

Give me a good old fashioned CTU girl any day.

[Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow]

*Originally posted by FallenAngel *
**If there were to be an arrest, no DA with an IQ over 70 would actually pursue charges if presented with this story, even in California. Kim followed both major rules for a gunfight. Rule 1: Have a gun. Rule 2: Claim self-defense and leave no witnesses. **

Rule 3: Be sure the ballistics match your story. Did that second bullet hit him in the back?

(As noted, Kim is safer in California than in some other states – California does not follow the retreat doctrine.)

[tdn]

*Originally posted by FallenAngel *
**I’m aware personal opinions vary wildly, but every teacher I’ve seen on Boston Public is a hideous troll-woman, particularly the fish-faced chick from whatever Star Trek clone that was.

Give me a good old fashioned CTU girl any day. **

Fine, more for me!

[RikWriter]

*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow *
**Rule 3: Be sure the ballistics match your story. Did that second bullet hit him in the back?
**

From what I could tell, it hit him in the chest (he was laying flat on his back at the time). However, the angle of the shot might show that he was on his back…or that she was on hers at the time.

[foxfiregrrl]

So, was I the only one who thought that maybe Sherry staged the stabbing? Maybe she hoped that either she or the hacker could get away, since Jack would hesitate about which way to go…

[BiblioCat]

*Originally posted by Richard *
**I don’t think it’s possible to fold up that kind of attic steps from inside the attic. Certainly not in the time Kim had.

It is possible to fold those steps up behind yourself, but not in the half-minute that Kim had.

What did Kim hit Bad Dad with when he went up the ladder?

[/QUOTE]
Bob T said:
I also think that Kim hit Evil Dad with a circular saw.
[/quote]

I would have sworn it was a ski boot. Wasn’t it a ski boot?

[BobT]

I guess it would make more sense to keep a ski boot in your attic than a circular saw.

But a circular saw would be more effective. Pretty hard to screw up with that.

[BlackKnight]

foxfiregrrl, I was wondering the same thing. I’m not sure how likely it is, but I certainly wouldn’t put it past Sherry.

[Monstre]

from Dewey Cheatum undhow
An interesting question: what happens to Kim? She may well be liable for murder. I’m pretty sure that California is a retreat-doctrine state – that is, if you can retreat safely, you cannot claim self-defense for the use of deadly force.

A prosecutor could certainly argue that, as Evil Dad was dazed and prone on the floor, Kim could have run for the door instead of shooting.

Either way… how’s the prosecutor going to know? The only witness was Kim. If she tells the story that he was not dazed and unconscious, there are no witnesses to tell a different story.

Sure, there’s forensics. I’m sure they could figure out the angle of the bullet and all that, but still… Kim: “He was starting to get up, and he was going to come after me again!”

[Monstre]

From Fallen Angel
I’m aware personal opinions vary wildly, but every teacher I’ve seen on Boston Public is a hideous troll-woman,

Hey! Marilyn Sudor is a babe! You take that back!

[Troy_McClure_SF]

What got me about the pull-up-the-attic-stairs bit was the fact that she made no noise. The camera followed Gary the Dickhead, and there wasn’t any background noise, which led me to beieive that Kim was hiding, I dunno, under the bed or something.

As for Sherry staging it, I don’t think I can really see her getting her hands dirty in the literal sense. She’s crooked and dirty and slimy, but I don’t think she’d give up her dignity like that.

[Sam_Stone]

An interesting question: what happens to Kim? She may well be liable for murder. I’m pretty sure that California is a retreat-doctrine state – that is, if you can retreat safely, you cannot claim self-defense for the use of deadly force.

A prosecutor could certainly argue that, as Evil Dad was dazed and prone on the floor, Kim could have run for the door instead of shooting. And even failing that, he could easily argue that the first bullet incapacitated Evil Dad enough such that Kim could escape without the need for bullet number two (there was big gap of time between bullets – Kim didn’t double-tap the guy – so she had time to consider flight as an option).

And there is no “daddy told me to” defense.

Kim might be going to the big house.

Well, let’s see… The guy kills his wife, and kills a cop, and then is shot with his own gun by a young woman after a scuffle. And she goes to trial by jury. Do you foresee a conviction?

And, there are no eyewitnesses. The facts of the case (angle of bullet, etc) would support the fact that he was between her and the door. She’s half out of her head with fear.

I can’t see anyone going to jail under those circumstances. And certainly not the daughter of the CTU agent that saved Los Angeles from destruction, averted a war, and saved the reputation of the President of the United States.

I think they’ll give Kim a medal. For killing someone who desperately needed killing, by shooting him in the chest. Twice.

[SuperNelson]

*Originally posted by Pablito *
**And I hate the Chappelle character, so I’m glad he was incapacitated, but I wish Tony had cold-cocked him instead of a wimpy chloroform rag. But then, that would have been more Jack’s style.
**

Actually, Jack would have shot him. With a tranquilizer gun if he was in a good mood.

[SolGrundy]

Here’s what I’m hoping against hope will happen next (these are just wild conjecture, and not very probable at that, so don’t think I’m spoiling anything):

1. Tony and Michelle figured out some ingenious way to frame Carrie for chloroforming the boss.

2. Before Sherry dies horribly, she tries to contact Palmer for help, and he refuses one final time.

3. Kate meets up with Kim and somehow reveals that she’s EEEvil. She’s got more tie-ins with Dad’s business than we think. I’m not sure exactly what would have been her motives all this season, but anything’s possible. After Jack was consoling her and she kept saying that she felt like it was all her fault, I started wondering… what if it really is all her fault?

[The_Grapist]

*Originally posted by RikWriter *
**Or Massachussetts. **

this post has been Graped by the Grapist!

[capacitor]

You know I’m kind of pissed, of how TV portrays computer hackers like me. I’m being told I can stop a war, and I react by stabbing the First Lady??? How unstable can you get.

[Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow]

*Originally posted by Sam Stone *
Well, let’s see… The guy kills his wife, and kills a cop, and then is shot with his own gun by a young woman after a scuffle. And she goes to trial by jury. Do you foresee a conviction?

Well, they didn’t convict OJ, either. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t guilty of a crime.

I was really asking if Kim would be guilty of murder assuming all the facts are known.

You could make the same you “can’t prove it/no jury would convict” argument on a lot of classic law school hypotheticals (person jumps off of roof; man in apartment below is threatening his wife with a gun; gun discharges, killing jumper as he passes by an apartment window; is the shooter guilty of anything?), but that would sort of miss the point of the exercise.

Kim’s safe becase California doesn’t follow the retreat doctrine, but there’s a good chance she’d be guilty in a retreat doctrine jurisdiction (depending on if retreat was possible). **

And certainly not the daughter of the CTU agent that saved Los Angeles from destruction, averted a war, and saved the reputation of the President of the United States. **

I fail utterly to see why this is of any relevance whatsoever. The jurors wouldn’t be informed of that fact for precisely the bias reason you note, and the prosecution would certainly use strikes for cause against jurors who are aware of her relationship.

[FallenAngel]

Even in a retreat state (and here I’ll note that IANAL) I think Kim would not be guilty of anything, since she did have her back to a wall, the assailant was between her and the only means of exit and he was starting to come toward her.

I think she would be innocent no matter what jurisdiction the act took place in.