What really sucks is that this shithead got more action than I did new year’s eve.
You should have tased him.
No, it absolutely does not. You’re getting a lot of Monday-morning quarterbacks here telling you what you should have done. It’s easy to know what you maybe should have done when you’re someone else talking about it two days later.
calm kiwi, I didn’t have the guy I was hanging out with–former roommate of a friend, BTW, I didn’t attach myself to a complete stranger–call me a cab because there’s no such thing out here in the boonies. He had offered to give me a ride home once the girl he’d come with was ready to leave, but I opted to wait for my friend, since I didn’t know him that well and she showed up again on her own.
I have to admit to being really shocked by everyone’s responses here, though. While I’d felt pretty disgusted and upset, the only other person here who’d taken the incident at all seriously was the guy who made the creep back off. The friend I’d gone out with, my mother, sister, a couple other friends, all laughed and said, “Yeah, guys can be gross.” One of them even expressed shock that I’d gotten upset, because the guy involved sounded hot. Which just reinforces my feeling that calling the cops would have had me laughed at, at best.
Lesson learned, if it happens again I’ll make more of a fuss and get somebody who works there involved.
Why, yes, I did. Did you bother to read both my posts and put context around my response to you before your knee hit your chin?
Bring your own friends, ones that never leave your side. This is one of mine.
Remember, when seconds count the police are only minutes away.
Airman Doors, I’m of two views towards your advice.
On the one hand, it is entirely appropriate for someone to defend themselves from unwanted attention.
On the other hand, I can easily believe that the police department that CaerieD is concerned about would only cite her for dangerous or threatening behavior. And simply increase the social costs she’d face for escalating the situation.
Responding with deadly force (and pulling a knife, even if one cuts no one, AIUI does count as such) is warranted, but it would only be accepted in this sort of situation if the responding officer actually believes that the jerk did anything wrong in the first place.
And if the community standards were such that she could believe that the responding officer would agree that the jerk did anything wrong, I doubt he’d have been quite so blatant about following her for the rest of the night.
ETA: I just realized, I didn’t make it clear that one of my assumptions is that the sort of sexist who I believe one would have to be to behave as the OP describes would also refuse to honor the implicit threat of a carried and displayed knife, until at the very least the blade it out and pointed at him.
Was he threatening violence? I didn’t read it that way. He said “makes me want to stomp the shit out of that guy.” He was describing a feeling. An actual threat is, “I will stomp the shit out of that guy next Thursday.”
Even scholars and gentlemen can have feelings and take note of them.
I wouldn’t advocate that she pull out a weapon and start attacking right away, but she said that she was afraid to leave her “protector”, a guy she had never met previous to that night. Given that fear and the obvious intent of her erstwhile stalker, I’d say that having it and knowing how to use it would go a long way to mitigating that fear.
There is a difference between being able to protect yourself and using your ability to protect yourself inappropriately. I always advocate the former, never the latter.
WTF?
No seriously WTF?
This guy was a bully. He is no different than the big guy that picked on the little kids in the school yard. Well sightly different his bullying was sexual in nature.
I got bullied a lot as a little kid (I was a little kid). I never forgot what it was like to be bullied. However I grew up to be a guy that doesn’t get bullied. However I still recall the feeling of helplessness of being bullied. I am guessing that the OP felt the same way.
Since I have grown up, and because I remember what it was like to be the object of a bullies attention. I have placed myself between bullies and their prey on several occasions and asked if they wanted to try and pick on me instead. I have done this, because of the how I was raised, this is what a gentleman does. He looks out for others.
If I were at that bar that night, I would have gladly placed myself between the OP and the asshole.* I would not have started any stomping, but if it became physical, I would have done my best.
How is this not gentlemanly?
As far as scholarly goes, if being scholarly means allowing a woman to be molested without interference, then count me in with the troglodytes. I would not want to be a scholar in that case.
YMMV of course.
*FTR Yes I have stepped between ladies and guys that did not know the meaning of the word no. Funny thing is, they never seem to want to take me on.
CaerieD,
What happened was bad, and maybe we would have responded differently. Of course we’re sober and we’re not out in some bar. I’m not going to judge you for what you did or did not do, and I hope you don’t sit around saying to yourself “I should have…” because you did the best you could with what you had.
Chalk it up to expeirence.
Sorry this happened to you. No, it doesn’t sound as tho you did anything wrong, and you certainly did not deserve to have this happen to you. Relying on what I can remember of my decades of experience as a drunk, I can assure you that this guy didn’t act this way because he was drunk - he acted that way because he is an asshole.
As ugly as this incident was, you may be fortunate that you were not harmed to a greater extent, if you were spurred to think about what you might to differently to avoid recurrences, or how you might react differently in the future.
-I’ve done quite a bit of martial arts/self defense training, and the surest way to avoid confrontations with drunken assholes is to avoid places where they tend to be.
-If you strongly desire to go to bars and such, then you might want to consider how much you drink, as you suggest it may have clouded your judgment such that you did not see the bartender or another employee.
-Sure, you can dress however you wish and should not need to experience behavior such as from this lout, but if such behavior is possible, you might want to be more sober, arrange to be in the company of a large male friend, or at least keep closer track of the friends you are with.
-Like Airman Doors, if I were female I would certainly carry a blade and know how to use it.
-As a large guy who can take care of myself it is appealing to say, “I wish I had been there, I would have shut the guy down for her.” But I’ve enough experience with disputes between intoxicated persons to know that things are rarely as they seem to a 3d party, and you rarely want to get involved in what appears as though it might be a domestic argument. I very clearly recall one party where a drunken girl was screaming to be protected from some guy, and when a couple of guys stepped in, she went after them, clawing their faces. It ended with one of her “rescuers” cold cocking her - and being applauded. And there is a reason why cops often describe domestic disputes as the most dangerous situations they face.
Yes, it really sucks that you are not able to go where you wish, dressed as you wish, and do what you wish without being hassled. But unfortunately, ugliness is a real possibility. So now the decision is up to you; what - if anything - will you do differently in the future?
I think pepper spray rather than a knife is more advisable. A knife can be used against you with far worse consequences.
In most clubs, bringing a blade like that in will get you kicked out, in a hammerlock, and immediately, too. With good reason. Drunk Strangers + Deadly weapons = Bad Things.
I don’t think a woman should be allowed to gut a man because he grabs her boobs. I also don’t think I ought to be allowed to gut someone who punches me in the nose (and I’m not).
CaerieD, despite the attempts by some to label advice-giving as picking on you, that is/was the furthest from my mind. Folks here are telling you what you might consider doing next time, and giving you some reasons why, although going to the police sounds “extreme” (certainly less extreme than pepper spray/knifing/shooting) in most cases it really is the right thing to do. No one, well at least not me, is blaming you for not calling them. IRL things happen fast, things happen confused, and things happen fucked, and it’s hard to know what to do and what not to do.
You say you live in a place where the police will essentially give you no help and no protection, well, what can I say to that other than it sucks that you live in a hellhole like that. If I was ever honestly afraid of police inaction to a crime against me, I would put my house on the market and move at once.
Perhaps where you live, but in Pennsylvania we have the legal right to carry handguns into bars. Wise? Perhaps not. Nevertheless, a knife wouldn’t even cause someone to blink their eyes. If it were pulled, that would bring the police toot sweet, but that would be a separate issue.
I didn’t say that it should be used because of groping, wrong as that is. It should be used as a last resort, say, if she had walked away and been followed out of the bar. People, and especially women, should not be at the mercy of drunken men with sexual assault on their mind.
As for being punched in the nose, well, that’s left to your judgment. I’d avoid the situation at all costs, but it is unreasonable to place the burden on the assaulted party to submit to the assailant. If I’m smaller and at a physical disadvantage, I’m coming out with whatever I have. Better that the assailant should be injured than me.
Which is why it’s inadvisable for a smaller person to have a freakin’ knife. Drunk wrestles knife from hand of woman, woman stabbed, end of story. Unless you’re freakin’ She-Ra, or have had some wicked training, a man is going to have an upper-body strength advantage and have a greater chance of wrestling a knife away, or turning it into her vitals.
You don’t want to do that north of the border.
I think if it were a dance club, where the average and median age is around 22, it would. Laws vary, but any establishment can tell you that your knife is not welcome on the premises.
I agree that it is a judgement call, but something to consider is that pulling a knife in a fistfight is likely to make you the criminal.
I had a wiseass response to this all written up, but suffice it to say that I do not agree with this at all, and so I will keep my own counsel on the subject.
I would like to point out that I said from the get-go that if said person is going to carry any sort of weapon they should know how to use it, but I suppose that that has no bearing on the discussion.
Please, feel free to post it. I’m dying to hear your wisdom on the subject.
As I posted, if I were a woman, I would carry a knife and learn how to use it. And knowing how to use it means the other guy should not know you have a knife until he wonders why he is bleeding from several wounds. Which means, you don’t pull your knife unless you intend to use it - which is a very serious deal indeed.
I don’t know your experience, but I spent several years studying and teaching knife and stick fighting. I’ve thought about this kind of situation quite a bit. I’m pretty well able to handle myself, but as a 6’3" 200# guy who doesn’t go to bars or wild parties or bad neighborhoods, and will willingly walk away from just about any conflict, I’m pretty unlikely to ever need to. On the flip side, except for those with the highest skill level and committment, most women are very limited in their ability to defend themselves against a committed larger attacker. IMO, short of firearms, a knife is the one thing that evens out the odds most effectively.
I’m well aware that many people with varying levels of practical experience differ on this. Just stating my opinion.