Please, you don’t have to apologize. I overreacted by swearing at you & stuff, so I was out of line. I am hanging my head in shame at this very moment.:o
Nice martyr act, there.:rolleyes:
Well, here’s my parting shot:
A woman goes to a doctor complaining about her hand, which is cut and bleeding. The doctor says, “What happened?” The woman says: “I put my hand in the garbage disposal”. The doctor says: “Well, I suggest that you not put your hand in the garbage diposal any more.” The woman replies, “Why you sanctimonious bastard; how DARE you tell me what to do?”.
As for me, I would just note that I have seen Mighty_Girl post nothing at all in this thread to counter my previous assertions:
You wrote:
“Sometimes he seemed a little uncomfortable with my ‘paranoia’ and my insistence that the relationship remained secret to everyone else.”
Eh, you do a good surprised act, but you obviously didn’t treat the guy with a lot of respect. Especially if you were ashamed to let anyone else know, to the point where you demanded that it be kept a secret.
Yeah, he should’ve told you that he screwed someone else, but guys don’t like to say shit that hurts people’s feelings. They like to dole out info on a “need to know” basis. Girls do the same thing, so don’t act all offended and righteous.
And he probably didn’t want to screw things up with you, because he was getting casual sex on a regular basis with no committment. Why do something to risk that? He probably thought he could work out the same arrangment with another girl. Do you REALLY know that you were the only one?
You were being thoughtless and/or naive. Lesson learned the hard way.
Rock on, Mighty_Girl.
The relationship choices you make may not be mine (used to be quite good at casual sex in my early 20s, but the years have made me a bit of a softie, I suppose), but fercryingoutloud, you’re an adult, capable of making her own decisions. Your morals are your own, and unless they harm others, they’re for no one else to judge. You entered into an agreement with another adult, and he failed to meet his end of the deal. You have a right to be pissed - this guy broke the agreement.
I honestly have read this thread with continued amazement at the judgemental tone of some posters, reading entire psychiatric profiles from a few message board posts. Utterly unreal.
My only doubt is about you having casual sex unprotected. It wouldn’t be my choice. Being the cynic I am, I’d say that sex is the most lied about subject in the world - don’t take any chances unless the relationship is stable, monogamous, and comitted. This particular relationship failed to meet those standards, and I would have certainly made sure the sex was protected. Well, back in my wilder, younger days, anyway.
And don’t you worry about family pressure. I know just a little bit about hispanic culture (although I’ve never been to the Domenican Republic, and HOW I’d love to!), and I know the pressure can be quite high. Nevertheless, it seems you’ve got a lot going for yourself. Fluent in at least two languages, articulate in both as well - and a youngster at 32.
[sub]… said the guy who’ll turn thirty in a month…[/sub]
Long story short: rock on!
I just realised I have no idea whether you’re articulate in Spanish or not. 
So, Lady of the Lake, I hope you aren’t mad at me anymore, because I’d like to continue the discussion. There’s something you said that’s sort of gnawing at me. You said:
“There have been healthy relationships of that type”
And the “type” of relationship we are talking about is two platonic friends agreeing to have an exclusive, long-term sexual partnership with each other even though they do not love each other. We’re not just talking about casual sex, we’re talking about a committed relationship of casual sex with no intimacy. Now what I’m getting from you is that you think that such a relationship is an emotionally healthy thing to have. What I’m wondering is if I’ve understood you correctly, or if that’s really what you believe. I admit that I don’t have statistical proof ready at my fingertips right now to show that it’s not emotionally healthy, but it just seems like such an obvious thing to me that is so in keeping with everything I have ever learned about relationships, that I’m really having a hard time understanding why some people would think that it IS emotionally healthy. If that’s what you believe, fine - but is that really your position?
You didn’t ask me, but one of my NON committed relationship of casual sex without love didn’t exclude intimacy altogether. We kissed during sex. But we didn’t hold hands walking down the street or call each other oogly names. (We HAD dated years before, did not love one another then either, broke up. But the sex was good.) Neither one of us had an SO. We knew and trusted each other. And we wanted sex every so often. Yes, I believe that was a healthy relationship, mostly because both of us agreed to it and were mature enough to handle it.
Some folks are polyamorous, or have open marriages. Some are swingers. I would not personally participate in things like that (from the point of one being in the marriage), but I do not say those relationships are not healthy because I would not do those things.
It’s not the type of relationship I desire, but I’m not sure I agree it’s inherently unhealthy either, blowero.
Your discomfiture seems to arise from
But as Caesar says of Britannus in Shaw’s classic, “Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.” Your exeperience with human relationships does not a rule make … or, frankly, even a guideline. There are, on this board, straight and gay couples, polyamorous relationship participants, open marriage participants, and who knows what else.
If you knew the players personally, you might have some basis to opine that their particular relationship dynamic was unhealthy for them. You have absolutely no grounds to support a contention that it’s always unhealthy, for anyone.
- Rick
No, no. Not mad at all. Shy.
I thought about replying to your post above, but wasn’t sure. Was there sarcasm I was missing? I didn’t think so, but replying nicely might bring the attention of a member of the ‘one-line-loser brigade’, I didn’t want that. (Hint to those who love to fly by with petty insults: It doesn’t make you look cool, and it only creates more sympathy for the person you’re trying to slam. I suggest finding a new hobby to build up some self-esteem…maybe buy some pet fish or something. Small tasks like that give a sense of accomplishment, and over time you may find that you LIKE connecting in a positive way with other life forms!)
See, the above paragraph is a good example of why I usually think twice before posting and then don’t post.
Okay, I do not think this type of relationship IS healthy. I think this type ‘CAN’ be emotionally healthy, If the people in the relationship are a) honest with each other and others (but only as needed, not many acquaintances care about this type of thing other than for gossip fodder, and I think M_G’s situation is unique when considering this.) b) realistic about the situation and c) prepared for the possibility of having emotional tangles.
As a good example of emotional tangles, jealousy and feeling unfulfilled may be a good example of this? They may happen in this type of relationship, but does this mean they have to? Jealousy and feeling unfulfilled can (and frequently do) happen in a long-term married relationship. That is my biggest sticking point regarding this. I don’t think this type of relationship HAS to lead to emotional tangles if the people in it are honest and committed to keeping the relationship healthy.
Now, the discussion that this type of relationship may be more likely to lead to emotional tangles is a different thing all together (for me). 
There have been several people in this very thread who have stated that they have successfully lived through a monogamous friend-sex relationship, which also does support the thought that it’s possible to be (what’s the word?) at harmony (?) with this type of relationship.
I will state here that I could probably NOT do this type of relationship.
Basically, I think Mighty_Girl’s situation is unique, especially with the social norms that are prevalent around her and I really feel a few people have been very ready to judge her as if she were living in their social stratosphereand holding their lifestyle beliefs. 
(To clarify, I’m not really talking about you here, a good example would be Doghouse)
I’m talking about emotional intimacy. Just because you kissed when you had sex doesn’t mean you had an emotionally fulfilling, healthy relationship. I also had a friend where a lot of times we ended up in bed together, and it was fun and all, but neither one of us pretended like we were having a healthy sexual relationship with each other. We were just horny. Masturbation is fun, too, but I’m not gonna pretend like I’m having a relationship when I do it.
First of all, I get a vibe from you that you are equating “unhealthy” with “shameful”. Maybe that’s not what you’re saying, but I feel this “who am I to judge others” sentiment going on. And that’s a great point - we shouldn’t be judging other people’s actions. But that’s not what I’m talking about. So let me try to be more clear:
I think when we engage in these kind of relationships and tell ourselves that it’s good for us, we’re doing ourselves a disservice. In my opinion (and I think a lot of people share this opinion), a loving relationship between 2 adults is the most fulfilling thing there is. And before anyone tries to make unwarranted assumptions, let me say that it doesn’t have to be heterosexual to be fulfilling. But it DOES have to be 2 people who love each other.
That doesn’t mean we’re all going to find love instantly (I’m still working on it), but then I don’t see any reason not to try. But if I announce “I’m gonna be a swinger”, or “I’m just gonna do it with my bed-buddy all the time”, then I’m settling for a less-than-fulfilling relationship. I can preach all day about “don’t judge me” and “how do you know YOUR way is right?”, but at the end of the day, I’m not really experiencing love, which to me is the pinnacle of existence. And if I’m settling for a relationship without love, and just being complacent and not even hoping to fall in love, I just don’t think it’s emotionally healthy.
As for swinging, open marriages, and “free love” - I think they’re interesting ideals, and were tried to some extent in the 70’s, but I think the experiment pretty much failed. The problem with free love is that people just don’t work that way. We have the human emotion of jealousy. We don’t want to share our lover with anyone else, even if we try to convince ourselves otherwise.
Lady of the Lake:
No, I didn’t intend any sarcasm.
Well, maybe I should have used the word “fulfilling” rather than healthy. I really meant “healthy”, not just in the sense of doing no harm, but in the sense of helping us to grow as human beings. And if you’re in a loveless relationship, I don’t think you’re really growing emotionally. I also think everyone took me too literally when I said it’s “bound” to lead to problems. I wasn’t trying to make a scientific prediction that loveless relationships end badly in 100% of the cases - more like just a general observation that they tend to lead to trouble. But here’s the bigger point: Sure, you might end up with problems in a loving relationship too, but isn’t the goal worth more risk in that case? Yes, you can make an agreement with your bed-buddy that you will have sex all the time and neither of you will sleep with another, and it might work out O.K., but you are risking jealousy, betrayal, and the loss of your friendship. For what? What have you gained by this agreement? How has it helped you become a more fulfilled person? On the other hand, if you risk all that stuff pursuing love, in my opinion it’s absolutely worth it.
I guess some people are going to think I’m being judgmental, but I just don’t feel that I am. YMMV.
Exactly - it’s MORE risk, for LESS gain. That’s why I think it’s unhealthy.
Some people really do want to have casual sex. I’m not one of them, but I know several who are fulfilled in significant part by sexual variety. So they’re happy being swingers or what have you; not my scene, but I’m not going to tell them that they’re settling for something other than what they want.
Some people don’t want a serious relationship at all, don’t want to do the whole settle down and be domestic thing. Some of them aren’t suited to that. I know quite a few of those, and I don’t think it’s reasonable for me to tell them that they really need something they don’t want.
Me, I need to have two partners to feel emotionally fulfilled. And you may believe that the experiment failed in the seventies, or what have you, but that would be a big shock to the multipartner families I know that have been around for fifteen to twenty years. And while you may have the belief that people just don’t work that way, but I feel more inclined to trust the actual members of my family than you on what works for them.
Variety happens. My relationship with my husband is improved by my relationship with my mate, and vice versa. Trying to go with the whole monogamous thing would be a tremendous risk for no gain whatsoever. . . .
Lilairen, you almost took the words out of my mouth (except I’m in a monogamous relationship). I know people who thrive on the intimate interaction that a multiple partner relationship offers.
I also think that people wouldn’t be nearly so taken aback if MG was a man. Men do the multiple partner thing WAY more often than women (in my experience), and society tends to accept it much more readily. They also put the “no strings attached” prerequisite out there more often than women (in my experience).
Someone else said that MG was denying herself the opportunity to find a “true love” relationship. I don’t want to speak for her, but I didn’t see it that way at all. I saw that she was taking a break from emotional intimacy purposely so she could mend from her break-up. By the way, you can have emotional intimacy with a friend without it being ROMANTIC emotional intimacy.
At any rate, I don’t think she did anything wrong in setting up the parameters of her relationship with Mr. Fuckbuddy. I would have been more forgiving than her, but that’s a personal call.
Good for you. I don’t think that kind of situation would work for most people, but I’ll take your word for it that it works for you. But the thing is, you’re not complaining. IF you got burned by your 3-way arrangement, and you decided to post a pit thread saying how angry you are about getting hurt, I bet a lot of people would point out that you shouldn’t have gone for the 3-way thing in the first place. If it works for you, fine. I’m talking about when it DOESN’T work for you, but you insist on doing it anyway.
Here’s an example: Let’s say I fall for a married woman, and she tells me that she wants to leave her husband and be with me. My friends tell me: “Don’t do it, Blowero - you’re being foolish”. But I don’t listen to them and instead have an affair with this woman. Then let’s say she ends up not leaving her husband, and I end up high & dry. Now, I can spew venom at HER for deceiving me, but the person who is really at fault is ME, because I went against common wisdom to engage in some risky behavior. Like another poster already pointed out: “Play with fire all you want, but don’t complain if you get burned”.
And that sort of projected response is exactly why I don’t talk about relationship difficulties in places full of poly-ignorant people.
I don’t want to be abused for my orientation while trying to get support for relationship shit, so I keep my relationship shit discussions to communities full of people I don’t have to justify my existence to.
If by “MG”, you are referring to Mighty Girl, I think you are confused. She didn’t have multiple partners. In fact, she was upset BECAUSE her bed-buddy had multiple partners. You may want to go back and read the OP again. If “MG” is referring to someone else, I apologize.
But I think the point you were trying to make is that double standards are wrong, and with that I completely agree.
Really? And you think meaningless sex with another person is the best way to heal from a failed relationship? I’m not trying to be facetious, but it really seems ludicrous to me: “I’m just coming out of this relationship where I got hurt, so I think I’ll sleep exclusively with the same guy for a year and a half even though I’m not in love with him and I’d really rather just be friends.” And THAT’S going to help her mend? And I don’t understand why I am not allowed to point that out without being accused of “judging” her.
It’s a Dominican thing, blowero: you wouldn’t understand. :rolleyes: After all, she doesn’t live in your “social stratosphere” (whatever in God’s name that means) and doesn’t hold your “lifestyle beliefs”.
Blowero, the first part of my response was a little unclear. I was half responding to Lilairen and half making a statement about double standards and how easily people pass judgement. Sorry.
But as for the second part of my post, it isn’t up to you and me to decide how she will mend. It’s up to her. And she may not pick the best way to do that (I’ve missed that boat on more than one occasion), but it’s her business. Besides, the burn could have happened from a platonic friend who lied to her. That’s what she’s pissed about. The sex is incidental.
“Poly-ignorant” - That’s a new one. I guess some people will go to any lengths to portray themselves as a downtrodden minority.:rolleyes:
You can marry a goat for all I care - just don’t bitch about it when it doesn’t work out.
O.K., I’ll say this just once more. No, it’s absolutely none of my business. But by posting in a public forum like this, she MADE it my business. For crying out loud, if you don’t want other people’s opinions, DON’T FUCKING POST IN THE BBQ PIT. How hard is that? I went to great pains to mention that I don’t think she’s a bad person, and that I understand that the guy shouldn’t have lied to her, and he deserves her anger. But I’m sorry, I’m not going to censor the rest of my opinions. People, if you just want a pat on the back and someone to agree with everything you say, this isn’t the place.