Mafia Reunion - NIGHT ZERO

[ToeJam]

@sachertorte

ToeJam is awfully concerned about how he appear and lacking in suspicion towards the three who find him suspicious. Um, ToeJam, sinjin, Guiri and NormalPhase could be scummy scum scum. You are way too concerned about them finding you suspicious and too deferential to them for me to believe you are Town.
Is it? I don’t think so. I do think being overly concerned about looking scummy is scummy though.

Too deferential? I noted I found all 3 suspicious, but you feel I’m not aggressive enough towards them? Do I need to really FOS them or something? It’s early in the game, and I want to keep track of players for myself, but I do not want to keep any notes/spreadsheets for this game, so I need to keep people in mind for myself, so I will be bringing them up.
As for play styles- I know it’s been a while, but I am a fan of being aggressive, I dislike quiet “me too” votes, and I will always ask those who FOS/Vote for me to explain themselves, because when I i inevitably get lynched, it will at least provide data to the town to go over, rather than a bunch of “Oh, well this person made an argument, and then we had 4 people agreeing with that assessment when they voted.” That does NOT help the town in the long run.

As for the Pleonast Question - Thanks for the clarification. I thought I had read it right, because the idea of various scum factions coordinating seemed too out there, but I see I misinterpreted his statement. In that case- I find it unlikely that scum will cross-communicate (because they have vested interest in taking the other group out more than even us townies).

[Chronos]

Lynch the lurker might not generate much information in itself, but it prevents the loss of information. Whenever we lynch anyone, we lose whatever insights and interactions they were going to have for the rest of the game. Lynch the loud, and the game can reach a state where nobody’s saying anything, and nobody else is saying anything because nobody is saying anything to say anything about. Lynch lurkers, and that effect is minimized.

Quoth MHaye:

3. Meeko raised my hackles, a really neat trick in N0. He asked: what is the difference between claiming town, and being confirmed town? That is possibly the single most disingeuous question I have ever seen a mafia player who is not a brand-new player ask. It makes me wonder about his motivation.

From any other player, it’d raise my hackles, too, but Meeko is the one person from which it might be understandable. In something like his first four games, he ended up being confirmed as Town early on, twice through, basically, accidents of the game setup. As a result, I think he’s gotten it fixed in his head that “get oneself confirmed as Town” is something that every Townie is expected to do. So he tries everything he can think of to confirm himself Town, and in most games, all that one can do is claim Townishness, which isn’t enough.

[sachertorte]

@Chronos

But I’m still strongly against editing, for a different reason. I have seen Scum make obvious slips, like posting “So who should we kill tonight?”, and accidentally putting it on the main thread instead of on the Scum board. And a Scum who does that is pretty much forced to edit it away. So when Town sees an edited post, we always have to consider the possibility that it was an erased slip, because we can’t tell that it wasn’t.

This point has been made before, and I still don’t care. Even if scummy scum scum makes a mis-post and edits it, I don’t care. Getting boards mixed up isn’t exactly the height of entertainment for me, and ultimately that is the goal of playing, to have fun. In my opinion, the benefits of editing (post formatting, getting quote tags right etc) far out weigh the slim chance of catching scum mis-posting, which wouldn’t be all that satisfying anyway. In other words, I don’t want mis-formatted posts to linger simply because players are afraid of looking suspicious for editing.

[wonky]

@Pleonast

I see little benefit and plenty of risks in discussing what town roles should or should not do. Let each player decide the best course for their own role. Remember, at least a quarter of current players have win conditions in opposition to ours. Do not take advice from anyone not confirmed as Town. Reread the second sentence of this paragraph.

If you feel a need to discuss roles, let’s focus on what the Scum roles might do. What tactics and gambits should we be prepared for. How Mafia and Wolves might try to coordinate. How third parties might try to.

And speaking of coordination, I’ll consider post editing extremely suspicious. Mafia, Wolves, and Third Parties have no easy means to coordinate. Putting a message in a post when another player is known to be online and then editing it before anyone else is likely to see it is a possible gambit.

I’ve thought about this more and I don’t see the argument for being silent about what town roles should do.

First, I don’t assume that I’m going to say something brilliant that no one else could think of, and that therefore I am giving the scum something they wouldn’t. Especially because we know that each scum team gets to pool its smarts. The only way for Town to pool its smarts is through conversation. And if it’s a mistake to talk about how to use Town roles, surely it would be more of a mistake to talk about how to use scum roles, wouldn’t it? I don’t think talking hurts Town, except perhaps in some closed games.

Second, when people are talking, they may show inconsistencies with their own gameplay in this game. And given that many people in this game have played many many games with the same people, it may show inconsistencies with their stated reasoning and/or gameplay in previous games. If someone has always been against anyone claiming Day 1 and is suddenly for it, well, that’s an inconsistency to note.

Third, no one is preventing any person from playing their role as they see fit, merely offering more potential information. Sure, some of the advice might come from a scummy viewpoint, but we want people to expose their scummy viewpoints.

So, while I’m still neutral on the Patsy claiming, I think I’m in favor of talking about it. And we’ve surely got some time to kill, for the love of Mike.

[sachertorte]

@Normal_Phase

Hey Pleo.

ETA: Remember that Thundercats Mafia game where we were the mafia with Inner Stickler and you and I won at final 5?

Also also ETA: Good times, good times.

Furthermore ETA: No, I have nothing to say to you about this game, I’m just tweaking your nose.

Speaking of edited posts. I happened to catch Normal Phase’s post before it was edited. I only remember because it was simply “Hey Pleo” which is a very strange post.

My point is: posting then editing, you have no idea who might catch the original post.

[sachertorte]

@ToeJam

Too deferential? I noted I found all 3 suspicious, but you feel I’m not aggressive enough towards them?

Where did you note that you found all three suspicious?
It’s not so much that you need to be aggressive towards them, just not so deferential. In other words, you seem to feel inferior to them in some way. You’re being too nice to them.

Do I need to really FOS them or something? It’s early in the game, and I want to keep track of players for myself, but I do not want to keep any notes/spreadsheets for this game, so I need to keep people in mind for myself, so I will be bringing them up.

I appreciate that it is a sort of damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation. A different tack would probably have pinged someone else. But this tack pings me.
I’ll try to explain it better, more for others than for you, because you know, suspicions. It’s mainly the phrase ‘is there anything I can do to convince you’ (paraphrased since I’m lazy). I guess its a tone thing. That phrase just looks like a scum trying to convince Townies (or at least people that he knows aren’t fellow scum*) that he’s not scum. Then I imagine what a Townie would do in your situation and I don’t think it would be to do what you did. The explanation and clarification are all fine, but ‘is there anything I can do…’? just not buying it.
For me, finding scum is an exercise in pattern recognition. Scum deference is a pattern I’ve seen before.

• Yes, I know if could be Wolf/Mafia or vice versa. I’m not going to jump through linguistic hoops to be super-precise about it.

[Boozahol_Squid_P.I]

@Total_Lost

I got a PM. I came to the thread and started reading - but wauw there is a lot to read already. I will need a drink soon - but since it’s not even noon in Denmark yet, I’d better go back and read some more before drinking it.

Don’t worry, TL. Your drinks are always ready at this bar.

[Colby11]

I think several of us will be drinking thanks to this game.

But we’ll make it fun! And entertaining, whether in life or death.

[Total_Lost]

@sachertorte

Okay. This night is kind of boring, so it’s story time with Uncle Sachertorte:

The story of the so-called Monkgate:

Long long ago there was a mafia game hosted by Blaster Master that was quite large (like this one!) and had 4 Masons (like this one!). But in the game long ago, they were called Monks.

[snipped]

Other weird stuff happens. It was a pretty weird game.

Endgame Monk Cometothedarksidewehavecookies has to choose who is the final scum, rereads the entire game and nails the last scum.

[At least, that’s how I remember it ]

Brilliant!! Love the story

@ToeJam

Isn’t that doing the Scum’s Job for them?
[snipped]

So as a Townie, I’d say lynching the scummiest as much as possible

@Players looking at Squid right now: what do you think of that remark?
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[Total_Lost]

@Boozahol_Squid_P.I

Don’t worry, TL. Your drinks are always ready at this bar.

I’m going to need that

This was a long read!!

Regarding fluff:
I used to be the Queen Of Fluff - but in a game this large I’ll be happy to resign and just be the Queen Of Flirt
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[Total_Lost]

Lynch the lurker isn’t what I hope for in this game. Seems to me that the mods will sub or modkill them. So I’d rather we talked and play the game.

Claiming was never my kind of thing. But I have grown less scared of it since I started playing. So if I do see points to the Pansy-claim. But I am a bit worried that later in the game a claim and possible lynch/band-wagon by Mafia+Wolfes might be bad. So I tend to think an early claim with more Town-votes might be an advance.

I have only read this thread right now. Will go and look at the PM-google-thing.

Also: I have played under names as Total Ullz and Total Ulla. But it’s been a while since I played last.
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[Total_Lost]

Forgot: I hate edited post.
Not a scum-tell I know.

But I have been in games where slips in the main-thread did give us a scum-lynch.

And it might even give scum an easy lynch if townies edit. Who is to say that scummy scum will not claim to have seen an edited post before the edit and smudge a townie.

Just saying - I see no reason for editing and bringing in the out-of-game speculations into the game.

Same way I dislike players being asked about participation on other boards or facebook while not posting in game.

Hey - I even considered voting Story when I saw he had edited on of his post
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[Johnny_Bravo]

So long as we understand that there is no such thing as a perfectly accurate scum tell then, yes, editing is a scum tell.

The only good reason to edit as town is if you’ve accidentally posted town-centric privileged information, like your role or who your fellow Masons are or gramma’s secret sugar cookie recipe. Bad formatting isn’t a good reason; not in this game.

Scum have lots more reasons to edit and they extend beyond accidental crossposting. Since they’re always lying*, the edit window gives them opportunities to notice that they’ve posted a contradiction or have otherwise upset their tissue of lies.

So, an edited post is more likely to be a scum slip than a town slip. If someone edits, they’re going to get the stinkeye (stinkfinger?) from me.

*Someone pointed out that the scum in this game actually get to scumhunt for real, which is going to make things a lot more difficult for us, at least in the beginning.

[Suburban_Plankton]

@Total_Lost

I used to be the Queen Of Fluff - but in a game this large I’ll be happy to resign and just be the Queen Of Flirt

How ***you ***doin’ ?

[Meeko]

@MHaye

Three things.

1. Multilynch will, almost certainly, be proved in hindsight to be an anti-Town mechanic. At least in Storyteller-designed games. I’ve played in one game where the third party winstealers were eliminated early, and the Town won because we (the Deadites) couldn’t kill enough town fast enough to win. On the other hand, in a different game the asylum inmates had the chance to kill the SK on Day 1. The town chose to lynch the Godfather D1 and the Recruiter D2… The do-gooders still won because the SK wasn’t killed quickly and raised the bodycount. It didn’t help us that the do-gooder recruiter blew his recruiting attempt. Not my finest hour.

My point is that more bodies tend to favour the Scum in the long run.

2. What’s the point of lynching the lurker? That yields the minimum of information immediately, and denies developing further information down the line. While this is not true if we hit a scum, my experience is that there is no correlation between scummitude and D1 activity. No, instead lynch someone who has done something controversial and caused significant reaction. That way, as more die and reveal their alignment we can (hopefully) see whether there is an alignment-based pattern.

3. Meeko raised my hackles, a really neat trick in N0. He asked: [post=19902376]what is the difference between claiming town, and being confirmed town?[/post] That is possibly the single most disingeuous question I have ever seen a mafia player who is not a brand-new player ask. It makes me wonder about his motivation.

Well. Shit.

I was going to read the other comments and get back to you on your number 1. Number three just kinda got me to the quick.

MHaye I trust you know Pleonast’s history. I trust you know my history with Pleonast. To the point, I raised a similar issue before in a game, in the same context of Pleonast acting high and mighty after claiming town. In the forbidden thread after that game, someone was, in so many words, stunned, that I out Pleonast on notice. In a game with Noobs, and older players with lengthy hiatuses, I thought it proper to remind (albeit, couched in a question) everyone that a Claim is not a Confirmation. Why do you smudge here, and remove the context of Pleonast’s post prior?

That, Sir, is my motivation.

I don’t have issue with your #2.

I actually agree with your #1. Do you feel the multilynch has ulterior motives?

[Meeko]

NETA : Put Pleonast on Notice. Not out.

[Meeko]

@Johnny_Bravo

So long as we understand that there is no such thing as a perfectly accurate scum tell then,

Uh, I think I just found one.

[Mahaloth]

**I think we will be ready soon.

Once Day 1 thread goes up, let’s stop talking in this thread to keep things organized. For, discuss what you like.**

[Zeriel]

@sachertorte

Okay. This night is kind of boring, so it’s story time with Uncle Sachertorte:

The story of the so-called Monkgate:

Long long ago there was a mafia game hosted by Blaster Master that was quite large (like this one!) and had 4 Masons (like this one!). But in the game long ago, they were called Monks.

Early on, Monk storyteller got killed in the night and the monks were all very sad.

The game was designed to have lots of kills, but the killing roles got killed and the game moved very slowly.

Monk sachertorte went on a fabulous European vacation in real life and was away for two weeks.

Townies were angry at sachertorte for leaving them (we had a lot of attrition and substitutes in that game) :mad:

Scum were super nice to sachertorte because they are lying scum :smack:

Just before Monk sachertorte left, Monk nesta was forced to claim :eek:

Monk sachertorte decided not to claim with her and stay secret since Monk Cometothedarksidewehavecookies was also there and still kicking and hidden.

Monk nesta was viciously murdered by scum

Monk sachertorte was touring the Mediterranean with Mickey Mouse

Town was not doing so hot and lynched many non-scum

Scummy scum Idle Thoughts claims Monk! :dubious:

Monk Cometothedarksidewehavecookies counterclaims

Scummy scum Idle Thoughts has scummy scum I-don’t-remember-who also claim to be the 4th and final monk :eek:

Monk Cometothedarksidewehavecookies isn’t able to have Monk sachertorte counterclaim with her since he’s living it up on the Disney Magic. (sorry)

A convenient excuse Scum/Town proclaim.

“Hey I’m back, what’d I miss?” Monk sachertorte returns

Then shit gets real. :eek:

Much arguing and stuff. :mad:

Mystic-of-some-sort (backup Investigator) MHaye interjects, “I investigated sachertorte, he is Town”

“But he could be recruited, you don’t know that he’s still Town” scum proclaim.

More arguing and stuff. :mad:

“Uh, bullshit” MHaye proclaims, "I investigated sachertorte and he came back as Monk. Monks are immune to recruitment.

“MHaye must be scum too!” the scum proclaim “sachertorte must be the whatever-the-godfather-was-called-in-that-game and MHaye was recruited” :dubious:

“Seriously?” Monk sachertorte was getting tired of the bullshit. :mad:

Discussion of Occam’s razor blah blah blah.

Idle Swings and is found to be scum, huzzah!

Monk sachertorte is super mellow from meditating in the Mediterranean and isn’t dealing well with some of the game conversation and leaves the game (one of my biggest regrets) :o

Other weird stuff happens. It was a pretty weird game.

Endgame Monk Cometothedarksidewehavecookies has to choose who is the final scum, rereads the entire game and nails the last scum.

[At least, that’s how I remember it ]

The only part I don’t like is that you didn’t remember me, because I was also a Monk but claimed without revealing anything else because you weren’t back yet and Cookies was staying quiet. Eventually scum killed me too, and then Idle felt safe coming out with his claim…right into the Cookies counterclaim. Then zuma tried to claim monk while scum as well–and screwed it up big time by posting drunk, IIRC.

[Zeriel]

@Pleonast

I see little benefit and plenty of risks in discussing what town roles should or should not do. Let each player decide the best course for their own role.

This post gets the Zeriel stamp of approval. Especially now: power roles by definition have at least one more piece of important information than J. Random Townie (their own identity) and can therefore make more informed decisions.